(Link) Work on layering Rhythm Guitar tracks, looking for feedback...

[Destructavator]

I'm still working on re-makes of the first two soundtracks for UFO: AI, but they contain rhythm guitar parts, which I haven't worked with for some time and are different than the leads.  I also haven't worked with such guitar parts since before I've upgraded my tools with the new sounds I can make, so now I have to re-learn layering them with what I use now.

I've decided to try this out with another song idea (this one isn't intended for this game, that's why it is in the off-topic section), before trying to apply it to the re-makes:

http://destructavator.com/92dl/proj_17n_quad_4_9b.flac

This one isn't complete, but please tell me what you think of it.  I've worked on this all day, so I admit my sense of what sounds good is a bit down the s***ter right now, but I've played it back on my stereo, which sounds OK to me, as well as my headphones, which sound a bit different.

Don't be afraid to be critical, but I'm hoping for constructive comments on what could be done to make it better if you don't like it.

This was done with four guitars, layered and panned, plus the bass guitar, and a temporary drum track I admit I didn't do a lot of work on (stock drum phrases mostly).  I'd encourage playing it back on more than one stereo/speaker setup, not just basic computer speakers.

Layering guitar tracks like this is something that takes work, although once that narrow target is hit it can sound really good, in my experience.

I'm trying to get a thick sound, although I'm not trying to imitate any particular artist or band out there.

Edit: If you're not used to FLACs, you can easily play them with VLC Media player, which is free and also has a portable version (if you don't want to or can't install something on your computer).

[Winter]

Okay, I've had a listen to this, and you're very close to getting the sludgy sound right. The one thing that lets it down is that the notes are just a little bit too discrete, they don't quite blur together the way proper sludgy guitars do, thereby giving a slightly artificial sound.

I like the song overall. Will you be adding a lead guitar track for it? To my ear it could do with one to brighten up the solos and empty bits.

Regards,
Winter

[Destructavator]

I like the song overall. Will you be adding a lead guitar track for it? To my ear it could do with one to brighten up the solos and empty bits.

Actually yes, and then hopefully vocals as well, although I might also make an instrumental version of it at some point.  Right where this version ends is where I plan to add a different section with a solo, and then return back to the main part again, then an ending.  (Therefore the whole final version will be longer.)  I still haven't decided what the song will be about yet, though.  As I said, I didn't start this one out to be used for UFO: AI, but to try out a new layering technique for the re-makes of the soundtracks that are for the game.  Regarding that technique,

...you're very close to getting the sludgy sound right. The one thing that lets it down is that the notes are just a little bit too discrete, they don't quite blur together the way proper sludgy guitars do, thereby giving a slightly artificial sound.

Thanks for the feedback, as always this gives me a better idea of what to work on.

[Destructavator]

http://destructavator.com/92dl/proj_17n_quad_4_10_x1.flac

This one was done a slight bit differently, not sure if it sounds better or not...

Edit: Wait, I think I found the culprit, hang on a sec...

Edit: OK, try listening to this one:

http://destructavator.com/92dl/proj_17n_quad_4_10_x3.flac

I think the problem was too much contrast between the reverb settings of the inner and outer tracks.  The first version I linked to had no reverb at all on the inner tracks, slamming a dry sound with the outer ones, while this third one has that fixed.

[Winter]

Will try and give it a listen in the morning!

Regards,
Winter

[GopherLemming]

It's been a long time since I did some real songwriting, a year in fact, because my current computer's sound card is terrible and It doesn't have the space for professional software (laptop). I have to admit I'm a little out of practice so don't take my comments too seriously but if your still looking for feedback:

This is a good start. Timing is nearly perfect, several interesting rhythm patterns, with the promise of development into a great song.

I couldn't hear any bass, which is a severe dent in the song. Even if it's a simple track playing the base notes of the rhythm's chords, It makes the song spread over more frequencies "rounding it off."
The gain sounds digital. If you haven't done so already, consider removing the effects on the computer and using a direct line-in from a large valve amp. My personal choice is a marshall JCM 900 because it really sings when you turn the volume up, but any valve amp makes a better sound then digital equipment.
You have multiple tracks of rhythm guitar which is good, but consider using one to play a harmonizing riff instead of the same piece as the other tracks.

Right where this version ends is where I plan to add a different section with a solo, and then return back to the main part again, then an ending.

I can understand putting a limit on the lead guitar if there are vocals, but if you make an instrumental version forget a single section for the solo. The solo can be as long as the song, and is often the defining part that makes a great song fantastic. I'll upload some ideas when I boot up my old computer and figure out how best to upload...

I still haven't decided what the song will be about yet, though.

It really matters, not what others think, but what you think on this. It needs to be something that makes you put passion into the vocals. Most listeners don't hear the lyrics, they hear the notes, so a subject you really care about and inspires you to perform well is ideal.

Edit: I gather from that description under your picture that you're using a gibson, but which is it? An explorer?

Edit 2: My old computer won't boot, so I decided to do a little sample of an idea for the solo and demonstrate the hormonizing rhythm (which I just realized is impossible to hear...). Warning: Bad quality (previously mentioned computer), bad eq settings (free software) and bad rhythm guitar (I'm really tired!) but I'm just throwing ideas out there.

http://files.filefront.com/02+Rock+Otter+Samplemp3/;13331644;/fileinfo.html

[Destructavator]

Ah! I was hoping someone with experience would offer comments on this, thanks.

Yes, I used an Explorer, I have a number of different guitars although my favorites are my two explorers (Gibsons), one with EMG 81-85 pickups and the other with EMG 81-60s, as well as a couple of ESP-EXs, an Epiphone Goth Explorer with EMG 81-60s, and a basic Ibanez with a ZW EMG 81-85 set switched around (the 85 in the bridge and 60 in the neck).

I also have two cheap electric bass guitars, 4-string Yamaha and 5-string Rouge-II.

Regarding the bass guitar track, it actually is in the mix, although I admit it isn't well defined as I know very little by comparison about mixing bass guitar tracks.  I did however use a low cut on the main guitar tracks to leave room for the bass around ~85 Hz.

A real amp, especially a powerful tube amp, is simply out of the question, simply because:

1) I'm in a high-rise apartment building, I have to stick to equipment that doesn't make too much noise, in particular FIR speaker impulses (I use the keFIR VST plug-in) and headphones,
2) I'm in an old apartment building, including the electrical wiring, which wouldn't handle something like what you're talking about, and finally,
3) Real tube amps, good ones, do cost a bit of money that I don't have right now, not to mention the cost of attenuating the output or some type of load for the amp while running it in place of a cabinet that I couldn't use anyhow because of the noise that would get me evicted from my apartment.

I do have a solid state amp I could try though, it has the jacks for FX loop and everything and that might work better, Ibanez ToneBlaster amp-head TB150-something-or-other that I forget and can't recall the exact name of at the moment.

I also have other Guitar Amp emulation software packages, NI Guitar Rig 3.2.1 and Line 6, I could try those.

Yes, I've played with real Marshall Tube amps, I like them, I've heard them, but they aren't a real option for my apartment.

Before I started using keFIR I was using both an AxeTrak and a Grendel Dead Room (Iso-Cab).

Edit: I've also got an Art Tube Pre-Amp (real tube inside) that I can use with other stuff.

[Destructavator]

Hmmm, I'm surprised I didn't think of this before - I haven't tried this since starting to play with Impulse Response files - I hooked up the Ibanez amp head, which does work with the electrical in this building, and used the SEND to go into the computer, and then applied keFIR and a little reverb, while using the AxeTrak (which is very quiet) as a load:

http://destructavator.com/92dl/proj_17n_quad_4_12_D.flac

This track doesn't have the bass guitar track (It will go in later when I re-work it), and I think I mucked up the EQ a bit, but I think it sounds better than the amp sim I was using.  This might work better for all of the tracks with the right EQ.  It still needs work and some balancing, but I think its a better potential sound.

This latest link also has some skips here and there in some of the guitar parts, and that's because of a buffer problem which I can easily fix.

[GopherLemming]

Yes, I used an Explorer, I have a number of different guitars although my favorites are my two explorers (Gibsons), one with EMG 81-85 pickups and the other with EMG 81-60s, as well as a couple of ESP-EXs, an Epiphone Goth Explorer with EMG 81-60s, and a basic Ibanez with a ZW EMG 81-85 set switched around (the 85 in the bridge and 60 in the neck).

I also have two cheap electric bass guitars, 4-string Yamaha and 5-string Rouge-II.

Well that's given me a good idea of what your style and priorities are... I prefer a more general collection, but that's all to do with taste.

Regarding the bass guitar track, it actually is in the mix, although I admit it isn't well defined as I know very little by comparison about mixing bass guitar tracks.  I did however use a low cut on the main guitar tracks to leave room for the bass around ~85 Hz.

Again it's about personal taste, but I like to have the bass at just the right volume that you can just hear it, so without straining to hear, it blends in to the rhythm and drums but it can also follow a "hormonizing" role. Don't be afraid to use all the instruments at your disposal in as experimental a role as you like (more then once I've been in a jazz band playing bass, and I was the one soloing!). The cut off of guitar tracks in low freq isn't something I'd normally do, it's common practice to have overlapping as long as you can pull it off, but I'd be interested in how It turns out in the long run.

A real amp, especially a powerful tube amp, is simply out of the question, simply because:

1) 2) 3)

It was a little unfair of me to suggest a combo amp... I should have used more constructive criticism instead of just saying "go out and spend hundreds of dollars"

I do have a solid state amp I could try though, it has the jacks for FX loop and everything and that might work better, Ibanez ToneBlaster amp-head TB150-something-or-other that I forget and can't recall the exact name of at the moment.

A solid state amp might provide a better tone then computer effects, but the ToneBlaster is what I'd use... and is it the TBX150H?

Before I started using keFIR I was using both an AxeTrak and a Grendel Dead Room (Iso-Cab).

I just google'd keFIR and it looked like a good and FREE program. If I get time I'll play about with it.

but I think it sounds better than the amp sim I was using.  This might work better for all of the tracks with the right EQ.  It still needs work and some balancing, but I think its a better potential sound.

I'm ashamed to say this (computer hating musicians around the globe have put a bounty on my head) but there isn't that much of a difference. It's a good habit to use a real amp for the overdrive and reverb before the signal goes into a computer, but in this case after comparison, it's up to you.

[Destructavator]

Well, the last example still had digital reverb from a plug-in, although the amp head does have its own reverb on it which I haven't tried yet - and yes, its a TBX150 amp head which has features I admit I haven't tried yet but will, so I'll see what I can do with it.

I'd imagine that once I put the bass track back in (perhaps mixed a different way, I'll work with it) it will sound better.

Thanks again for all your comments, by the way, this type of feedback is really something I need.

[Destructavator]

http://destructavator.com/92dl/proj_17n_quad_4_12_E.flac

I did this one a little differently, also put the (crappy) bass guitar track back in.

Edit: If that isn't much better, here's another try with the simulation again, but a different setup (with hopefully less digital-ish sound) and with the bass guitar track done differently so it can be heard more:

http://destructavator.com/92dl/proj_17n_quad_4_13.flac

Even though it isn't real tubes, if it sounds close enough it might do the job - even if a small 1% of listeners don't think it sounds real enough, it may still be good enough, with some work, for everyone else.

[GopherLemming]

I did this one a little differently, also put the (crappy) bass guitar track back in.

Sounds organic, but the hi freqs on the guitar have suffered. I can't tell if the reason is computer related or originating from further back but there isn't as much definition at the top.

This brings up the important question that might make specific feedback easier: what sound are you trying to create? A heavy bass sludge, a crunchy top and mid feel or something in between?
I'm also Interested in what software you're using for mixing and editing...

Edit: If that isn't much better, here's another try with the simulation again, but a different setup (with hopefully less digital-ish sound) and with the bass guitar track done differently so it can be heard more

Loud bass, I think 12 E was closest to what I would consider a good volume but the levels within the track seem to have improved over the old one. The guitars have better top freqs then the other file, but the mid needs a little more "force" behind it.

Even though it isn't real tubes, if it sounds close enough it might do the job - even if a small 1% of listeners don't think it sounds real enough, it may still be good enough, with some work, for everyone else.

I think ultimately your right. I was being overly picky about the sounds I like, when most musicians aren't that bothered, let alone the general audience.

Music is, to a large degree, about personal tastes so you should always be ready to say "go to hell!"

Thanks again for all your comments, by the way, this type of feedback is really something I need.

No problem . If I tell the truth I'm honored that you're putting so much weight on my opinion.

[Destructavator]

Here's another try:

http://destructavator.com/92dl/proj_17n_quad_4_14.flac

This is with the modeling again, but different settings.

As far as the sound I'm going for, this is actually pretty close, although I think I still need to work a little more on the bass track.  To be honest I'm not trying to copy any specific artist out there.

The software I'm using is REAPER as my DAW.  I used to use Cakewalk Sonar before switching.

If this one doesn't sound too awful, I'm thinking about actually going with something close to this - another reason I'm hoping more people will comment, even those who aren't musicians, as not everyone likes the same sound and not everyone who plays the game is a musician (all about how what sounds good is a bit subjective).

[Destructavator]

Wait a sec, I think I found a solution that works better - I've found that by blending two speaker impulses together into one I can get some very nice sounds.  I did a little experiment and found that if I use one impulse for low, meaty, bass sound that includes the strong pick attack thrust-type thing and another for the higher-frequency treble and presence, I can get a very useful sound that comes out much better IMO.  I don't have any clips uploaded right now, but I'll be working on some...

[Destructavator]

Did it! - I think...

http://destructavator.com/92dl/proj_17n_quad_4_12_G2_TBX150.flac

This is with the real amp head, I think I'm finally happy with this one and might use this type of sound for the game tracks.

Any comments?

Edit: Wait, here, this one I think came out the best:

http://destructavator.com/92dl/proj_17n_quad_4_12_G3_TBX150.flac

I also tried this method with one of the game soundtracks:

http://destructavator.com/92dl/UFO_Air_Combat_3_20_TBX.flac

I think the track sounds better except for the chorus FX on the guitars, which in this case is a little too strong, but I can fix that easily.

Edit (again): Fixed the high-end treble, also applied a slight EQ touch to remove an annoying nasal sound:

http://destructavator.com/92dl/UFO_Air_Combat_3_20d_TBX.flac