How are Heavy Weapons incorportated into squad tactics?

[fuuuu]

Hey all

I've been neglecting heavy weapons with the exception of flame throwers because I cannot find a tactical use for them. The only time that I do use one, is when I cannot find better replacement soldiers with the appropriate skill.
*It doesn't have the firepower, a Close weapon will beat it within range of 10, and a single shot weapon will beat it beyond that. In the case of corner camping with RF flame thrower does the job well. For offensive fire support, single shot weapon or GL provide superior performance.
*It can't suppress the aliens nor have I found it being able to Spray/Weaken the enemy as a whole to a significant extent.
*To top it all off, its TU inefficient. Defensively, RF can only fire 2 burst, or 1 Auto, 1 Auto is insufficient at warding off more than 1 alien, 2 burst is insufficient at even killing one alien. Offensively, the fire requires too many TUs for it to skirmish well or assault indoor nests. I am not expecting the single soldier to fend off multiple aliens, but even with support of a buddy, the heavy weapon user will usually end up being the fodder.
*It does go through more armor, but the Table illustrates that its only 1-3 dmg per shot compared to assault or close. It seems more worthwhile to have specialised weapons which go through more armor.

I have read up in the forums that certain people like heavy lasers, I haven't been able to work out why that is so. It just seems to me that, heavy lasers have weaker TU efficiency, longer time to reload along with a small magazine. The only upside i can see is the range, but I would think Rockets are better at that point anyway. I am fairly new to this game, and I would like to introduce heavy weapons into my squad so I am wondering if I am missing something.

My tactics involve around taking strategical points on the map, securing the flanks and use the reserve to reinforce an arm to exploit holes in enemy defence. During indoor combat, I will establish perimeter security then send in sweeper teams of 3+ to clear it room by room. The tactic is smooth, but sluggish. Any advice on how to deploy heavy weapons or increase mobility will be appreciated.

[Juni Ori]

I'm ignoring heavy weapons now totally as well as flamethrowers and gl's. Smg's and snipers do the job. Smg's in cqb and snipers in larger ranges.

[ghosta]

I would say this is a topic that should be discussed after bigger UFOs and Alienbases are more frequent where close combat is more common (for e.g. the flamethrower).
In addition 2x2 aliens or heavy armored aliens havent been implemented yet, where weapons with a really high damage output are more useful.

So, it would be better to wait until the next stable release before balancing everything.

[Aiki-Knight]

This is an excellent question. I too am struggling with the use of the machine gun. I deploy one in every mission, but find the weapon's wielder has a harder time scoring kills than his comrades armed with submachine guns. The sniper, of course, is the queen of the battlefield, and is so very wonderful at the long-range firefight. The grenade launcher, despite its short range, is a fantastic clearing weapon.

My understanding is that a machine gun will be slightly less accurate than an assault rifle, and rather less accurate than an M-16-style weapon. However, it has the ability to sustain more automatic fire, and can therefore bring a lot of rounds down on target, especially groups of enemies. In the past, I've deployed the machine gunner to hold choke-points along the main axis of attack, but I've found that he has more trouble holding such a position than an agent armed with a submachine gun.

Perhaps the range and accuracy of the machine gun needs to be tweaked to be a little bit better, and the full-auto fire setting should be increased to some 30 rounds, to really get the full effect of a machine gun to happen. A machine gun must be able to significantly outperform smaller weapons in automatic fire, although it's true that even a proper machine gun is best fired in short bursts, so as not to overheat the barrel. However, doing so might keep the machine gun relevant.

While I'm on the topic, I think something needs to be checked on the assault rifle as well. I find that assault-rifle wielders rarely tend to get off more than a single shot at a time in reaction fire, even when set to 3-round burst or full auto. As a result, assault rifle agents are weak and unreliable in reaction fire compared to all their comrades, which is a shame, because I like to have a balanced and diverse squad. Really, an assault rifle should be the standard weapon for the larger maps, while the submachine gun should be intended more for FIBUA (inside buildings). I'd like to deploy the following squad:

1 sniper (a wonderful weapon, especially when your sniper gets good)
1 grenade launcher agent with a sidearm (These days I never leave the base without one. Why storm, when you can blast them out?)
1 machine gunner (needs higher rate of fire to hold choke points like a machine gun could)
2 assault rifles (needs more reliable multi-shot reaction fire)
2 submachine guns
1 medic armed with a submachine gun (pretty standard military practice)

I'd like to use the shotgun and flamethrower more, but they're too special and limited, I find, for the various battles. Maybe that's why a lot of special forces and SWAT police don't carry them. Still, I'd love to use them; there's just not enough room, not enough agents. But then again, everyone has his/her own style, which is why this game is so, so great. I see various schools of thought emerging, various kinds of practice emerging, different teams doing things different ways, but getting the job done. Love the game, people. 

[fuuuu]

It seems to be a balancing issue, although abit sad that MGs are neglected when most of Fire team tactics will revolve around MGs. MGs realistically are the Fireteam's real firepower and needs to be used wisely and decisively. As a matter of fact, the German WWII Fireteam had the MG gunner right next to the Leader to ensure that it is well directed and controlled. Whilst many modern fireteams are encouraged to withhold the use of MGs because its a trump card to be played at the right time.

to aiki;
I agree with much of what you have to say, although with the reaction fire bug what I do is exit the game and go back into it, and it works again. It probably will get fixed in 2.3

SAS used to use shotgun sabots to quickly open doors as an alternative to opening it with a breaching charge. Shotguns also come in automatic models, with about 300(i think) RPM. Quite effective at taking out multiple targets.

In terms of flamethrowers, realistically its actually got more effective range than submachine guns. Its especially useful for clearing buildings because you do not have to "hit" your enemy to burn him, and like explosions, should the room be closed, the fire spread into the room filling up every space. In essence, flamethrowers can by pass winding tunnels to hit whats behind it. In addition to that, FT burns up oxygen in the air(small spaces) and can disable tanks by overheating certain areas, say engine, external fuel and optics. The reason why militaries no longer uses it as much is because it A) attracts alot of enemy fire B) Its dangerous to allies if flamethrower is hit C) flame throwers are such a high danger that it is usually suppressed once identified. D) probably most important is human rights.
Swat teams probably don't use them because it can A) hurt the hostage, B) can set off bombs, it wont set off the good ones with a cook off timer, but the bombs may be home made. C) light up the sprinklers in the building D) It doesn't bring the "terrorist" down immediately E) controversy with Human Rights.

[Aiki-Knight]

Lots of great points there, Fuuuuu. It doesn't seem like the game can employ the aspects of flamethrowers that you mention, but you make a great case for it. And I know I'd make taking out a flamethrowing enemy a major priority, just as I make a priority of taking out aliens who, strangely, carry rocket launchers.

[Sophisanmus]

I have yet to play a game with an accurate representation of the Flamethrower in in combat; usually it is a sort of short-range rapid-fire weapon with a flame-ish animation.  I will, however, lay out a flamethrower concept for Starsiege: Tribes which I think found it close to the mark.  Tribes is a heavily mod-able game, and flourished with massive server-side game modifications created almost entirely through the game's scripting language, so this concept is considerably hack-ey.

The flamethrower fires a single projectile at a low rate of fire.  The projectile has a limited range and arcs with gravity.  When the projectile strikes, it creates are of effect damage and flame particle, while throwing out six unseen projectiles in a ring.  These arc downward quickly and detonate upon impact or after a short fuse.  These projectiles release more damage and fire particle, and toss three more unseen projectiles in a fan pattern, which explode with similar effects.  The overall apparent effect is that the fire trails along the object it hits, spreading out in the open or producing more concentrated damage in enclosed spaces.  It also allows the damage effect to navigate around  corners and doorways to a limited extent. 

I post this because the logic behind the implementation may be useful to you if you chose to overhaul the function of the Flamethrower.

[ghosta]

Sounds like something for the grenade launcher

[fuuuu]

I am personally ok with the way flamethrower works in this game. The said soldier using FT can also be cannon fodder, they don't need strength, mind, accuracy and weapon skills. As long as this soldier has Health and Agility, its good enough for them to go to the front line, and they're expendable.

Realistically, weapons that can bypass covers are Mortars, GLs, Gas/Chemicals, armor piercing weapons and nuclear bombs. Many varieties of indirect and direct weapons would work and i don't see the need for FT to be one of them. At the moment, its one of the most damaging weapons in the game, effective against all aliens and you can get it immediately.

Anyway, I did start the thread to discuss mostly machine guns or heavy weapons. If anyones got some tips and experience, do share it with us.

[Surrealistik]

I've proposed an extensive set of alterations to gear properties, including heavy weapons, and most of them have been cleared for implementation by Axis, so they will soon gain a tactical role, especially when it comes to overwatch, suppression and cover-fire.

[Aiki-Knight]

I am personally ok with the way flamethrower works in this game. The said soldier using FT can also be cannon fodder, they don't need strength, mind, accuracy and weapon skills. As long as this soldier has Health and Agility, its good enough for them to go to the front line, and they're expendable.

Realistically, weapons that can bypass covers are Mortars, GLs, Gas/Chemicals, armor piercing weapons and nuclear bombs. Many varieties of indirect and direct weapons would work and i don't see the need for FT to be one of them. At the moment, its one of the most damaging weapons in the game, effective against all aliens and you can get it immediately.

Anyway, I did start the thread to discuss mostly machine guns or heavy weapons. If anyones got some tips and experience, do share it with us.

For what it's worth, I don't believe in using certain agents as cannon fodder. I know I wouldn't want to be the picked to be "cannon fodder". For me, everyone goes home. We play for keeps, and keep everyone alive to the absolute best of our ability. Yes, someone has to take first position through the door, but we wait the aliens out as much as possible, and frag frag frag, flash flash flash rooms first.

[Darkpriest667]

but we wait the aliens out as much as possible, and frag frag frag, flash flash flash rooms first.



I had to quote this.... its not a warzone my friend its a civilian populated area... you dont throw frag grenades into a house that is occupied by civilians... Well unless you are willing to go in front of the international court of justice and explain why you murdered a bunch of civilians... "because i wanted to clear the room" is probably not going to be enough for the mostly european international court..




Onto heavy weapons... Myself and others have pointed out the very limited capability of weapons like the MG the Rocket launcher and teh grenade launcher ... While the GL is the most useful of the 3 its far from realistic... There were men i personally saw fire grenades 150 meters into a 1 x 1 meter "window" target.... the GL in this game is lucky to fire 20 meters... ... The difference between "soft cover" and "hard cover" is not even approached in this game... and lets be honest... If i shoot a wall with a rocket launcher even if there is reinforced concrete the guy on the other side is not going to be happy... (and he sure as hell isnt going to hear the same ever again) ...

of the 3 heavy weapons the GL is the most effective at this point lacking behind is the MG and lastly the RL.... id like the MG more except there is no way to set someone for suppression fire and a few other nifty things LSW's are good for...


Personally ive found the smg to be the best weapon in the game for TU-shots-damage ratio..... the worst being the machine gun as far as ballistic weapons go.... between the Flamethrower the RL and the GL the only one worth a crap is the GL....


If you were allowed more than  8 men in a squad there might be specific instances a RL or a FT  would be good... but ive found none in the game...

also... I know the MG does less damage than the AR... however.. in my .... unfortunate experience with wounded people... Ive found the 7.62 x 51 and every other round fired by LMG and LSW in the world withi the exception of the SAW fielded by the US Military... is a lot heavier and hits a lot harder than the AR rounds.... taking into account that most militaries well the ones that abide by the convention use standard ball rounds... a well placed Machine gun round will take a mans leg off at the knee.... while a well placed AR round will damage the knee beyond repair but usually wont dismember the victim...


In other words.. with the game engine and other programmed factors you've nerfed heavy weapons to where they arent even heavy anymore... except in weight ..... nerf the SMG it needs it badly... the standard SMG in my mind shouldnt even be able to penetrate alien armor... When you think smg think automatic pistol.. thats for all intents and purposes what it is...nerf it ...

[Aiki-Knight]

"I had to quote this.... its not a warzone my friend its a civilian populated area... you dont throw frag grenades into a house that is occupied by civilians... Well unless you are willing to go in front of the international court of justice and explain why you murdered a bunch of civilians... "because i wanted to clear the room" is probably not going to be enough for the mostly european international court.."

The aliens kill all the civvies around them. When the civvies are still alive in there, obviously I don't frag. And when the devs incorporate the International Court into the game, let me know. I'm talking about once I've made contact and know where the aliens are. I obviously don't frag every door I come to. Who carries that many grenades? I've never killed a civvy with a frag or FF. But thanks for the lecture.

[Darkpriest667]

The aliens kill all the civvies around them. When the civvies are still alive in there, obviously I don't frag. And when the devs incorporate the International Court into the game, let me know. I'm talking about once I've made contact and know where the aliens are. I obviously don't frag every door I come to. Who carries that many grenades? I've never killed a civvy with a frag or FF. But thanks for the lecture.

Well I always confirm there is no civies in a room before i start throwing high explosives in there.. Sorry that im wary of the Geneva conventions and such... I take my personal experiences from tactical assaults and try to implement them into my strategy in the game.. Its a fault i understand that... But its also what makes me a better officer/soldier than you... 3 weeks in iraq and youd be in front of a court martial thats for sure :-)

in WW2 it was a little different... Europe was so battered by war we expected civilian populations to leave and well sometimes we didnt care... now everyone cares.. you cant shoot this jerkoff you cant throw a grenade into an occupied house... there are rules and if you dont abide by them you face court martial or war crimes tribunal... I know Im a perfectionist But i look at that kind of thing before i charge into a room guns blazing.. Actions have consequences and you better be able to live with them.

you also totally missed my point about the heavy weapons which is what i really want read... so , i will , necro it and hopefully not be in trouble.. since that was the important part of my post.



Onto heavy weapons... Myself and others have pointed out the very limited capability of weapons like the MG the Rocket launcher and teh grenade launcher ... While the GL is the most useful of the 3 its far from realistic... There were men i personally saw fire grenades 150 meters into a 1 x 1 meter "window" target.... the GL in this game is lucky to fire 20 meters... ... The difference between "soft cover" and "hard cover" is not even approached in this game... and lets be honest... If i shoot a wall with a rocket launcher even if there is reinforced concrete the guy on the other side is not going to be happy... (and he sure as hell isnt going to hear the same ever again) ...

of the 3 heavy weapons the GL is the most effective at this point lacking behind is the MG and lastly the RL.... id like the MG more except there is no way to set someone for suppression fire and a few other nifty things LSW's are good for...


Personally ive found the smg to be the best weapon in the game for TU-shots-damage ratio..... the worst being the machine gun as far as ballistic weapons go.... between the Flamethrower the RL and the GL the only one worth a crap is the GL....


If you were allowed more than  8 men in a squad there might be specific instances a RL or a FT  would be good... but ive found none in the game...

also... I know the MG does less damage than the AR... however.. in my .... unfortunate experience with wounded people... Ive found the 7.62 x 51 and every other round fired by LMG and LSW in the world withi the exception of the SAW fielded by the US Military... is a lot heavier and hits a lot harder than the AR rounds.... taking into account that most militaries well the ones that abide by the convention use standard ball rounds... a well placed Machine gun round will take a mans leg off at the knee.... while a well placed AR round will damage the knee beyond repair but usually wont dismember the victim...


In other words.. with the game engine and other programmed factors you've nerfed heavy weapons to where they arent even heavy anymore... except in weight ..... nerf the SMG it needs it badly... the standard SMG in my mind shouldnt even be able to penetrate alien armor... When you think smg think automatic pistol.. thats for all intents and purposes what it is...nerf it ...

[Aiki-Knight]

"Quote from: Aiki-Knight on October 17, 2008, 07:36:59 AM

The aliens kill all the civvies around them. When the civvies are still alive in there, obviously I don't frag. And when the devs incorporate the International Court into the game, let me know. I'm talking about once I've made contact and know where the aliens are. I obviously don't frag every door I come to. Who carries that many grenades? I've never killed a civvy with a frag or FF. But thanks for the lecture.

Well I always confirm there is no civies in a room before i start throwing high explosives in there.. Sorry that im wary of the Geneva conventions and such... I take my personal experiences from tactical assaults and try to implement them into my strategy in the game.. Its a fault i understand that... But its also what makes me a better officer/soldier than you... 3 weeks in iraq and youd be in front of a court martial thats for sure :-)

in WW2 it was a little different... Europe was so battered by war we expected civilian populations to leave and well sometimes we didnt care... now everyone cares.. you cant shoot this jerkoff you cant throw a grenade into an occupied house... there are rules and if you dont abide by them you face court martial or war crimes tribunal... I know Im a perfectionist But i look at that kind of thing before i charge into a room guns blazing.. Actions have consequences and you better be able to live with them."

Honestly, what did I just write in response to your lecture? If you're such a vet, why not cut back on the personal attacks and benefit us with your claimed extensive experience.