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Author Topic: Nation building  (Read 5555 times)

Vyper

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Nation building
« on: March 27, 2008, 10:10:37 pm »
  One of the things I really like about this game is the fact that it incorporates both nation building (bases) and small unit tactics into an interesting storyline. Granted it's more about the fighting then nation building atm but I can hope that both will continue to move forward. With that in mind, I have seen many suggestions on new weapons, weapons research and aircraft but little on the nation building side.

A few things I would like to see.

Make bases expandable. We should be able to enlarge our bases that are within the borders of a very happy nation at some point.

Make more building types or at least make building improve their techniques and technology to improve their usefullness.

Tabs in the Geoscape that would allow players to assign production and research tasks to base without having to go into the base view of each one. Maybe a list of bases and what is available for research in a drop down menu. This gives more of a commanders view and feel to the player.

Expanded radar and base weapons stations. I have read that you can load up one base with radar for world wide coverage but even if this still works I see it as no more then a glitch and very unrealistic. Possible allow bases to use existing Civ radar within their continent once happy or exuberant is status is achieved  Maybe implement satellite coverage in some way?

Allow fighter escorts. If drop ships are attackable then allow fighters to escort them within their range.

Combat air patrol (CAP) As base weapons expand their firepower and range, interceptors would be less involved close to base and would needed to patrol and engage beyond the bases range. Allow them to patrol beyond their bases radar range an use lesser on board systems to watch for UFOs. This also gives a chance that if you see a UFO on the edge of radar coverage for a second then lose him you can send out interceptors to investigate and hopefully reacquire the target.  Possible implement an AWACS type craft to extend coverage.

Expand the hanger capacities. IMO the drop ship isn't much bigger then a large cargo helo which can carry 20+ troops IRL and can fit 4-6 to a normal hanger once you fold the blades.  If base expansion above is used this isn't a huge priority and you can simply build more.

Make transfer aircraft a true unit. Have it attackable as the drop ships should be. Allow fighter escort as above. Transports should take up a lot of space but be able to carry a lot as well. Transports would need to be housed somewhere with an empty large hanger. The transport could fly to Base X, pick up cargo, transit to the drop off point and return to base. (refueling as needed at base stops) This is assuming the base transporting doesn't house a transport. Drops ships can double at this role but with less storage room.

Some side notes:
Beyond the current scope I know, but...
Could we see reinforcements used in the future? IE Aliens reinforcing a battle and making Phalanx do the same? Maybe have interceptors race to take out the reinforcements before they land? could be used on crash sights too. Larger maps might help some

Cosmetic I know, but...
Show major urban areas on the geoscape, at least when zoomed in. As it is in 2.2, the planet looks uninhabited besides alien UFOs and Phalanx bases. Pick 3-4 of the major urban areas in each continent and light them up a bit, especially at night. This also plays into the above civ radar usage scheme. I know weather is on the todo but I am not sure if it will effect the geoscape or just battlescapes.

Again this is more for the "nation building" and strategic side of the game and if it's a direction the Devs don't or won't go down then SIL. (such is life) I need to learn to program. I have ideas but have no means to make them into a game or mod for computers.

Comments, questions and concerns?






 

knightsubzero

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Re: Nation building
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2008, 11:27:45 pm »
they all sound like pretty good ideas, the reinforcements one sounds great, if you let the reinforcements land then you will encounter more aliens, if you shoot them down, then you dont, and perhaps the alien morale on the ground will be reduced.

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Nation building
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2008, 11:29:24 pm »
Make bases expandable. We should be able to enlarge our bases that are within the borders of a very happy nation at some point.

This is unlikely to happen. The 5x5 base grid, when filled with facilities, makes for a rather large tactical map. A larger grid would make the map too large for comfort. Though there are currently issues with available base space, especially considering the "invalid" tiles that are placed randomly on the grid, the solution to this should lie with removing the need to build many facilities of the same type, rather than increasing the building space.

Quote
Make more building types or at least make building improve their techniques and technology to improve their usefullness.

Building upgrades are part of the plan already.

Quote
Tabs in the Geoscape that would allow players to assign production and research tasks to base without having to go into the base view of each one. Maybe a list of bases and what is available for research in a drop down menu. This gives more of a commanders view and feel to the player.

We're working on a new interface design that pretty much caters for this.

Quote
Expanded radar and base weapons stations. I have read that you can load up one base with radar for world wide coverage but even if this still works I see it as no more then a glitch and very unrealistic. Possible allow bases to use existing Civ radar within their continent once happy or exuberant is status is achieved  Maybe implement satellite coverage in some way?

That used to be the case, but no longer. There will, however, be upgrades for the radar facility that increase the coverage.

Quote
Allow fighter escorts. If drop ships are attackable then allow fighters to escort them within their range.

There are no plans for this, but it's worth considering. There will be dropships that can defend themselves, though.

Quote
Combat air patrol (CAP) As base weapons expand their firepower and range, interceptors would be less involved close to base and would needed to patrol and engage beyond the bases range. Allow them to patrol beyond their bases radar range an use lesser on board systems to watch for UFOs. This also gives a chance that if you see a UFO on the edge of radar coverage for a second then lose him you can send out interceptors to investigate and hopefully reacquire the target.  Possible implement an AWACS type craft to extend coverage.

No, that would be awful in terms of gameplay. Too much micromanagement. Note that the scenario you describe where a UFO shows up "for a second" can not happen. A radar facility has two ranges - detection and tracking. The detection range is smaller than the tracking range. If a UFO flies into the detection range, it is spotted. It then stays spotted until it flies out of the tracking range.

Quote
Expand the hanger capacities. IMO the drop ship isn't much bigger then a large cargo helo which can carry 20+ troops IRL and can fit 4-6 to a normal hanger once you fold the blades.  If base expansion above is used this isn't a huge priority and you can simply build more.

One hangar, one ship. No exceptions.

Quote
Make transfer aircraft a true unit. Have it attackable as the drop ships should be. Allow fighter escort as above. Transports should take up a lot of space but be able to carry a lot as well. Transports would need to be housed somewhere with an empty large hanger. The transport could fly to Base X, pick up cargo, transit to the drop off point and return to base. (refueling as needed at base stops) This is assuming the base transporting doesn't house a transport. Drops ships can double at this role but with less storage room.

Sounds like a whole lot of unnecessary micromanagement. I don't see it happening.

Quote
Could we see reinforcements used in the future? IE Aliens reinforcing a battle and making Phalanx do the same? Maybe have interceptors race to take out the reinforcements before they land? could be used on crash sights too. Larger maps might help some

Alien reinforcements I think will happen in some scenarioes. PHALANX reinforcement, not really.

Vyper

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Re: Nation building
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2008, 03:25:32 am »
"Make bases expandable. We should be able to enlarge our bases that are within the borders of a very happy nation at some point."
This is unlikely to happen. The 5x5 base grid, when filled with facilities, makes for a rather large tactical map. A larger grid would make the map too large for comfort. Though there are currently issues with available base space, especially considering the "invalid" tiles that are placed randomly on the grid, the solution to this should lie with removing the need to build many facilities of the same type, rather than increasing the building space.
Are you talking about when bases are attacked? Tactical map? Either way If buildings are going to getup grades then great. I hope you mean that labs will produce more research and workshops will produce faster product. 1 scientist with the modern equipment is better then 10 with a 1950s lab. Robotic workshops etc.

"Combat air patrol (CAP) As base weapons expand their firepower and range, interceptors would be less involved close to base and would needed to patrol and engage beyond the bases range. Allow them to patrol beyond their bases radar range an use lesser on board systems to watch for UFOs. This also gives a chance that if you see a UFO on the edge of radar coverage for a second then lose him you can send out interceptors to investigate and hopefully reacquire the target.  Possible implement an AWACS type craft to extend coverage."
No, that would be awful in terms of gameplay. Too much micromanagement. Note that the scenario you describe where a UFO shows up "for a second" can not happen. A radar facility has two ranges - detection and tracking. The detection range is smaller than the tracking range. If a UFO flies into the detection range, it is spotted. It then stays spotted until it flies out of the tracking range.
I guess I misstated that one. The scenario I am speaking of is when a UFO gets just within detection range but only along the edge. You order out interceptors and before they can get into weapons range the UFO is out of tracking range and they return to base. The UFO is not even close to 1/4 the range of my interceptors but they have to retun to base instead of keep hunting. We should be able to guesstimate the area they could intersect it's path and order our flight(s) to that area. Onboard radar should be a small range but at least you have a shot. UFOs can change heading and I understand that. I just hate it when my interceptors return to base  after being hot on the trail of a fleeing UFO just because it's out of range of the base. 

"Make transfer aircraft a true unit. Have it attackable as the drop ships should be. Allow fighter escort as above. Transports should take up a lot of space but be able to carry a lot as well. Transports would need to be housed somewhere with an empty large hanger. The transport could fly to Base X, pick up cargo, transit to the drop off point and return to base. (refueling as needed at base stops) This is assuming the base transporting doesn't house a transport. Drops ships can double at this role but with less storage room."
Sounds like a whole lot of unnecessary micromanagement. I don't see it happening.
Actually most of it should be scripted/programmed. You wouldn't do anything special as a player besides assign the transfer. The closest available transport would take off shortly there after and the rest is automated. Dropships would be assigned the task manually. You would have to assign the escort though but with the lines showing the path I don't see that as an issue if you decide to go with the escorted fights then just create a command much like you have now, for which mission or crash site to go to, to escort target. While escorting they auto engage any UFO that comes within their detection range.


knightsubzero

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Re: Nation building
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2008, 04:55:56 am »
i think mainly what he is getting as is the ability to send aircraft out on patrols, the aircraft already have a radar range attached to them, but you cant send them out to inspect an area that you suspect may have enemies, you can only send your aircraft to designated target zones, such as terror attacks and alien ships that have been detected.

being able to escort other aircraft would be good.

i agree on the hanger, 1 aircraft per hanger.


Offline BTAxis

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Re: Nation building
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2008, 12:53:31 pm »
I guess I misstated that one. The scenario I am speaking of is when a UFO gets just within detection range but only along the edge. You order out interceptors and before they can get into weapons range the UFO is out of tracking range and they return to base. The UFO is not even close to 1/4 the range of my interceptors but they have to retun to base instead of keep hunting. We should be able to guesstimate the area they could intersect it's path and order our flight(s) to that area. Onboard radar should be a small range but at least you have a shot. UFOs can change heading and I understand that. I just hate it when my interceptors return to base  after being hot on the trail of a fleeing UFO just because it's out of range of the base.

That's a balance issue, really. We could just lower the speed of the UFOs some. I understand what you're saying, though, and I think it could work. I just don't like the idea of making the player scout around for UFOs outside the base's radar range.

Quote
Actually most of it should be scripted/programmed. You wouldn't do anything special as a player besides assign the transfer. The closest available transport would take off shortly there after and the rest is automated. Dropships would be assigned the task manually. You would have to assign the escort though but with the lines showing the path I don't see that as an issue if you decide to go with the escorted fights then just create a command much like you have now, for which mission or crash site to go to, to escort target. While escorting they auto engage any UFO that comes within their detection range.

I still only see disadvantages. Not only will the player have to expend extra effort for every transfer made (micromanagement), he also runs the risk of losing the cargo ship from an alien attack, which would be frustrating and which would discourage moving stuff from base to base, which is not what we want. I'm sorry, but I really don't want this to be implemented.

knightsubzero

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Re: Nation building
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2008, 01:55:11 pm »
well it has other tactical uses as well....just say i send my vulnerable transport to a terror site, at the moment i can either a), let the transport take of and hopefully arrive safely or B i can sent my fighter to various waypoints along the path, so there is always  an interceptor ready to deal death to any nasties that may cross my ships path.

also will help for scouting enemy bases in the future.

there is a radar on the ships now, so there would be no need to change that i think.

Offline BTAxis

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Re: Nation building
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2008, 02:13:54 pm »
also will help for scouting enemy bases in the future.

That's exactly what I don't like about it. You see, the player will be able to TELL where alien bases are by observing the alien supply ships that build it. It would be too easy to just put a scout plane right over it until it shows up. That conflicts with the game mechanic we have in mind for the alien bases.

Vyper

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Re: Nation building
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2008, 03:23:16 am »
Ahh, ok. So it could be used as a kind of work around of an important game mechanic. I can understand that.  I would say, find some other means of keeping the players blind to alien bases until time X then to simple not allow them to explore the planet they inhabit. But hindsight is 20/20 and if a lot of work is already beyond that point I can see, and agree with, the resistance to the idea of patrolling aircraft. But it could be an idea for later, if some other means of hiding alien bases etc is work out.

Offline brackxs

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Re: Nation building
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2008, 02:11:40 pm »
Maybe the aliens could employ some kind of cloaking mechanism for their bases? with gadgets that are so big that this technique would not work with aircraft... :-)