Weapons jamming

[Doctor J]

I let my medics carry SMGs though.

Those are secondary weapons right? Haven't checked back in a while; vidcard got fried a week now.

The game puts them as a Secondary rather than primary.  They require two hands, however, so i consider them [and the shotgun] to fill a intermediate position between rifles and pistols.

[Doctor J]

I like the idea of an occasional weapon failure due to jam/overheat.  The key being it should happen very rarely, perhaps 1:100 or less.  I also think that the high tech toys will be susceptible as well.  They have fewer moving parts, but also less time to engineer in improvements.  If you were a soldier, would you like to have your life depend upon a "beta test" weapon?  Anyway, given that there is resistance to the idea, perhaps implement it as an option the user can turn off/on from the configuration screen.

[Doctor J]

Let's have a look on the situation today... how many regular soldiers and how many special forces carry secondary weapons?

Afaik nearly none of them.

Do you have any way to back this statement up?  When i served in the infantry during the 80s, every rifleman carried a bayonet as well.  Every heavy weapons gunner carried a pistol AND a knife.  I haven't yet talked to any servicemen coming back from Iraq or Afghanistan, but i'd be willing to bet that they want options when their life is on the line...

Concerning elite troops i can't speak for them but i consulted a book i had handy: NAM.  According to it, U.S. Army Special Forces soldiers routinely carried the .45 caliber pistol in addition their main weapon and bayonet/knife/machete.  There is a personal account in the book from a SpecOps soldier who carried an SMG, had both pistol and knife on the belt, and a sawed-off shotgun on top of his pack.  U.S. Navy Seals were similar, except they replaced the .45 caliber with a silenced 9MM.

[Serrax]

Do you have any way to back this statement up?

Yep. I served around 2000 in the Light Infantry of Germany. No one carried a secondary weapon - but the antitank squad. But these poor guys carried the (standard) G3 AND the rocket-launcher.  Furthermore, we met some american and european troops (light infantry) and none of them had secondary weapons.

BTW: I don't count a knife as 'secondary weapon'. A knife is a tool - and afaik the most modern 'bayonets' are simply knifes mountable on the assault rifle. Afaik have only the russian and chinese army still bayonets as standard equippent.

Concerning elite troops i can't speak for them but i consulted a book i had handy: NAM.  According to it, U.S. Army Special Forces soldiers routinely carried the .45 caliber pistol in addition their main weapon and bayonet/knife/machete.  There is a personal account in the book from a SpecOps soldier who carried an SMG, had both pistol and knife on the belt, and a sawed-off shotgun on top of his pack.  U.S. Navy Seals were similar, except they replaced the .45 caliber with a silenced 9MM.

Secondary or special weapons are justified for some special forces - like SEAL. But hardly for 'no-stealth' troops - like the PHALANX squads.

cu

[nemchenk]

All of the suggestions (weapon jams, encumberance, recoil, etc) I am planning to code up as completely optional features. If the UFO:AI devs and players do not want to use them, they would simply leave them at their default values. For example, weapons jamming/overheating would be set to 0% by default. The option would exist, however, for an alternative campaign to set them to another value.

@ Doctor J: I was thinking something like 5% jamming for full-auto or burst fire, less for semi-auto; it would depend on the weapon. Good point about the  PHALANX-made weapons jamming -- they are indeed beta-weapons Would also be an excellent way of keeping the older "black powder" guns in the game, as backup weapons!

@ Serrax: Your own argument proves that while mainline troops don't really carry secondary weapons, special troops do. I think this is to do with their intended use. Special troops (and police units, for another example) have been carrying body armour for a long time as well. Longer than mainline troops anyway, precisely because of their unit size, vs the expected strength of their enemy.

So, it all boils down to whether PHALANX is a covert organisation fighting the Unknown Threat, or an elite army unit that is a part of the Big Picture. I prefer the covert idea, but I respect the fact that other players may prefer the army idea. I believe it is about choice -- code that can be used either way with a simple option.

I know I will be enabling the option myself Some may say that it makes the game more luck-based, but I like a slight edge of unpredictability -- keeps me on my toes!


Yours,

nemchenk

[BTAxis]

Please don't. Make it a patch instead. It's not a good idea to make the game have different rules according to the options the player has set. We'd never live it down in multiplayer.

[nemchenk]

Sure, I will post up a patch. Although, I would say it is not ideal -- patches are one step away from forks in terms of maintenance and duplicated effort

Should we be looking at the way multiplayer is done? The server should be distributing this kind of stuff prior to a game. Tech level, damage rules, map, music, skins... All should be set from the server.

Of course, you then end up with players crying foul because they suspect the server is a modified version Has UFO:AI reached that critical stage yet? "He keeps hitting with every shot, while I only shoot my own feet... Haxx0r!!" Ah, the goold old days of MegaMek... *chuckle*

[Serrax]

@nemchenk:

@Serrax: Your own argument proves that while mainline troops don't really carry secondary weapons, special troops do.

Sorry, but light infantry does exactly the job, that the PHALANX squad does. 'Fight in urban area' - and no special force.

Physical superior and/or armored enemies even worse the situation. Secondary, smaller weapons are nearly useless.

@ Doctor J: I was thinking something like 5% jamming for full-auto or burst fire, less for semi-auto; it would depend on the weapon.

My experience: 5% jamming was normal for full-auto/burst fire and semi-auto for the G3 assault rifle - but these weapons were 15-35 years old. I consider the same jamming rate for the medium machine gun MG3 - at an age of 15 years. I never ever saw a new G36 jamming.

Would also be an excellent way of keeping the older "black powder" guns in the game, as backup weapons!

At a rate of 5% jamming?

I prefer the covert idea, but I respect the fact that other players may prefer the army idea. I believe it is about choice -- code that can be used either way with a simple option.

I cannot detect any convert tactics used by a PHALANX squad. Furthermore, the target - the aliens - are not a classic target for convert ops. And they know that the PHALANX squad arrived - a landing dropship is hardly to overlook.

cu

[Doctor J]

@ Doctor J: I was thinking something like 5% jamming for full-auto or burst fire, less for semi-auto; it would depend on the weapon. Good point about the  PHALANX-made weapons jamming -- they are indeed beta-weapons Would also be an excellent way of keeping the older "black powder" guns in the game, as backup weapons!

So you're looking into applying this 'per fire mode' as opposed to 'per bullet'.  Okeh.  Perhaps an average of one jam per twenty firings is still a might high, however.  As a point of reference, the great board game "Squad Leader" started with a jam occurring on a roll of 12 with two six-sided dice, and modified the chance [mostly downward] as the game evolved.  The 12 works out to be an average of one jam per 36 firings, or roughly 2.8%.  This was higher for certain weapons, for example the failure rate of flamethrowers was 28%.  Perhaps 2% for auto-fire and 1% for semi-auto, 3% for full-auto?  Then again, this would be a good place for selective weapon balancing; cut the SMG down to size, for instance.

As a further thought, is the patch going to be applied so as to affect both reaction fire and normal fire?  If it simplified the code base, i would be happy with it only taking effect on normal fire...

The next question is inevitably as to what happens with the weapon after a jam.  Here are some ideas:

1)  weapon is declared broken and removed from inventory [way harsh, but easy to do]

2)  The weapon status becomes 'malfunction'.  This would require that all firearms descriptions be amended to include a new status variable, as well as a decision on clearing/repairing.  It also needs a way for users to check weapon status.

2a) weapon remains jammed for duration of mission, is automatically repaired upon return to base [still harsh, but easier to implement than following ideas]

2b) The weapon is automatically repaired after a certain number of turns.  I don't yet have a suggestion as to how long this should be.

2c) The weapon carries the malfunction status until the soldier clears the jam by using his/her weapon skill.  This is the most complex option to code, but forgiving to the player.  It would require some modification to the user interface so the user can click on "Repair".  At the end of the mission the weapon [if still broken] will have to be automatically repaired or automatically eliminated.

[Doctor J]

Sorry, but light infantry does exactly the job, that the PHALANX squad does. 'Fight in urban area' - and no special force.

<snip>

I cannot detect any convert tactics used by a PHALANX squad. Furthermore, the target - the aliens - are not a classic target for convert ops. And they know that the PHALANX squad arrived - a landing dropship is hardly to overlook.

I don't think it's so much about being covert.  It's about not having a defined front line, reserves in the rear, etc.  I suspect the reason the elite troops carry so much junk is that they have to be self-sufficient for the duration of the mission.  This completely applies to PHALANX.  Also, unlike a modern infantry unit, PHALANX troops are unable to call upon artillery, air support, and such like.

[eleazar]

@ Serrax: Your own argument proves that while mainline troops don't really carry secondary weapons, special troops do.

No.  He's simply provided evidence that not all "mainline" troops carry secondary weapons.

So, it all boils down to whether PHALANX is a covert organisation fighting the Unknown Threat, or an elite army unit that is a part of the Big Picture.

I don't see why that is important to this question.

What it really boils down to is weather the player finds secondary weapons worthwhile.  If he doesn't, he's free to ignore them, and save the space and money.
Personally i've found them to be useful... not necessarily in every mission, but frequently enough to consider them worthwhile... especially for troops that carry TU-hungry or area-effect main weapons.

As long as secondary weapons aren't totally useless, there's no compelling reason to change the rules so they become more important.  After all, they are by definition "secondary".

[Serrax]

@Doctor J:

I don't think it's so much about being covert.

The choice of weapons is depending on the used tactics. And you don't sneak in and kill an alien from behind with a knife or a small, silenced weapon. As you cannot attack by surprise, small powerless but silenced weapons are useless - you need high firepower for open combat.

It's about not having a defined front line, reserves in the rear, etc.  I suspect the reason the elite troops carry so much junk is that they have to be self-sufficient for the duration of the mission.  This completely applies to PHALANX.

How long do you believe takes a PHALANX mission? Half an hour? One hour? Two hours?

Also, unlike a modern infantry unit, PHALANX troops are unable to call upon artillery, air support, and such like.

Not yet.


@eleazar:

Personally i've found them to be useful... not necessarily in every mission, but frequently enough to consider them worthwhile... especially for troops that carry TU-hungry or area-effect main weapons.

I also equip some troopers with laser pistols, especially the soldiers with flamers and grenade launcher. And they are not very effective using a secondary weapon. A lack of training for secondary weapons is another counting issue.

cu

[BTAxis]

Not yet.

Not ever.

[kracken]

I see 2 problems with this jamming stuff, I just want to mention them before work is started

• As we don't want to allow saving during mission, I'm afraid jamming won't be that fun. If your gun will jam at a critical time and your best soldier gets killed because of that, you'll probably just be sickened to start the game again just because of a damned random number.
• Game is already rather hard to balance. I guess you plan to have a different probability to jam for all weapons. That means that it would be a parameter to balance like damages, chance to hit,... If you want to implement jamming as an option, that would mean that balancing wouldn't be the same with or without jamming. And therefore that you would need different damages, spreading parameter, and so on, whether the jamming option is activated or not. So IMO, this is not a good idea to make jamming an option, at least on long time range.

[Doctor J]

@Doctor J:
The choice of weapons is depending on the used tactics. And you don't sneak in and kill an alien from behind with a knife or a small, silenced weapon. As you cannot attack by surprise, small powerless but silenced weapons are useless - you need high firepower for open combat.

Again, secondary weapons are not only for covert uses.  Let's think about early in the campaign, when you only have Combat Armour.  Your soldier carrying the Rocket Launcher comes to a corner or doorway, and suddenly you have a Bug Eyed Monster facing you at point blank range.  You COULD fire the rocket, but you're in the splash radius and will die as well.  My "Rocket Man" drops the launcher, pulls the SMG out of its holster, and saves the day.  I have personally done this maneuver many times.  It could be argued that the Rocket Man shouldn't be going into those sorts of places, but that's another conversation...

It can also be useful when the target is highly resistant to the damage type of your primary weapon.  Let's say the Laser Rifle isn't cutting the mustard, well you're also carrying a Plasma Pistol.

To summarize, secondary weapons are useful whenever you can't or shouldn't use your primary weapon.  Lack of jams doesn't doesn't eliminate the need for secondary weapons, it just reduces the need.