Recoil?

[nemchenk]

Is there (or will there be) a way simulate the various kinds of recoil? For example, something like:

Each weapon has a "recoil" stat. When calculating hit probability, we add Accuracy and the relevant Skill, but we will also deduct a modifier for Recoil. This modifier is 0, or (Recoil - Strength), whichever is lesser. Thus, Strength can prevent a malus from Recoil, but can never make a bonus. Or:

Code: [Select]

RecoilMod = ( Recoil - Strenght )
if ( RecoilMod < 0 ) then RecoilMod=0
ShotAccuracy = ( Accuracy + Skill - RecoilMod ) / 200
What do you think?

[BTAxis]

I don't like it, for the same reason I gave in the encumbrance thread.

[nemchenk]

That is, that it makes Strength too important. I think we can work around it, as I posted in the Encumberance thread. I need some help with Accuracy though Still, it is a Squad Tactics shooty game -- Accuracy could be important enough as it is!

[Surrealistik]

Lol. Strength does barely anything (if anything) at all. Why the phobia about giving it any measure of importance? Honestly, I don't get you axis. It should also be noted that not all weapons, or even most weapons for that matter, will have high recoil, so strength will not overtly limit the amount of equipment a soldier can use effectively.

[Neko]

I think I don't like it either. First of all, even if Strength has no meaning now, the devs have to plan not just for the current game, but also for the finished one which includes whatever else they plan on implementing at the moment.

Secondly, having Strength impact ranged accuracy is not intuitive. soldiers already have a stat on how good they are with all things accuracy, which is accuracy. Abstraction and simplification is more elegant in this case I think.

[nemchenk]

Strength doesn't impact on accuracy, Recoil does AFAIK the planned idea is to simply disallow soldiers below a certain Strength from carrying certain weapons. This I think is a much more elegant proposal (but then, I am biased! )

[SpaceWombat]

First of all "strength" is that abstract that it could mean a lot of things, most of them do not directly influence a soldiers ability to control recoil (if you can control it anyway. If your grip is to strong around the rifle recoil will impact your accuracy even more. Sometimes its better to give a little bearing play instead of trying to fix a moving system totally).
Recoil can be part of "spread" as well as "accuracy" on the soldier's side. There is no need to value it that high.
If you crawled 60 feet over sand and then try to hit anything with a rifle you know that physical "strength" as I interpret it here is not that important for shooting. Stamina and control/accuracy are much more important.
Depends on what exactly strength means here of course.

[nemchenk]

http://ufoai.ninex.info/wiki/index.php/Skills

Power reflects a soldier's physical strength. A high physical strength is especially important for soldiers who handle heavy weapons and armor, as well as soldiers who fight in close quarters. Power directly influences the damage a soldier can do in melee combat, and how well a soldier is able to handle a weapon's recoil. Recoil decreases accuracy, so a soldier using a weapon with a lot of recoil needs strength to keep it pointing in the right direction when firing.

Power also affects soldier's health points (HP) and the amount of equipment a soldier can carry before he becomes encumbered. An encumbered soldier suffers a time units (TU) penalty, as well as an accuracy penalty.

So, a sort of combined Strength, Stamina, Size, general gross motor type stuff.

EDIT: typos 

[Surrealistik]

In otherwords, it sounds absolutely appropriate for recoil management.

[nemchenk]

Sorry about the x-post, but I think my reply belongs here, while the original message is from the Encumberance thread

it is (more or less) redundant to penalize weak soldiers for heavy equipment by:
1) subtracting TUs, and
2) lowering accuracy via recoil

Hmm.. Well, good point. Double-whammy.

But, it all depends on the weapons right? The Flamer for example is a classic low-recoil weapon from the standard set. As is the Machine Pistol. Plasma and Laser weapons could also fit there.

Also, I think people are
(1) forgetting that the proposed solution is currently to completely disallow low-strength soldiers from carrying certain weapons:

However, I would be open to disallow soldiers from using or even carrying weapons if they did not meet certain requirements, like strength. These requirements could be clearly marked on the weapon description, so it would - again - be simple and straightforward.

(2) over-reacting about the severity of Recoil. It will depend entirely on the numbers each weapon has, which will be very intuitive as they are on the same scale as skills and attributes. For example, the Flamer should have  low recoil, lets say 10. This means only soldiers with Poor strength suffer a malus. Or the Assault Rifle -- medium Recoil, lets say 15. Soldiers with Strength below that can still carry and fire the rifle, they just suffer a malus of 1-3 points. Only a few points, people! Not "completely forbidden".

[shevegen]

I dont really have an opinion for or against, I am totally neutral on this, however I must make one remakr:

AFAIK the planned idea is to simply disallow soldiers below a certain Strength from carrying certain weapons.

This should not be the case. It should be a weight-strength relation, and before one jumps from "can use/carry this weapon" it should rather impact on encumberance first.

Think of an old lady that tries to carry a bag of rice, if she manages it will encumber her but maybe she will manage!
Now think if reallife simply tells her "sorry, your strength is too low" simply because it is easier this way than to model encumberance and let her carry that heavy bag slowly ... (which isnt *that* difficult either...)

[eleazar]

Think of an old lady that tries to carry a bag of rice, if she manages it will encumber her but maybe she will manage!
Now think if reallife simply tells her "sorry, your strength is too low" simply because it is easier this way than to model encumberance and let her carry that heavy bag slowly...

We are all aware that real life is a bit more complicated than a simple "can carry / can't carry" encumbrance model. 

However, UFO:AI is a game and every aspect of it is an extreme simplification of real life.  In other words, you have not provided a valid reason for or against using any particular encumbrance model.

[nemchenk]

Which complexity are you referring to, eleazar? The complexity of coding it? I can take care of that.

The complexity of a player understanding the system? I don't think it is hard to understand -- weapons with high recoil need a stronger person to fire accurately.

Or am I missing something?

[Kamuflaro]

Weapons should have a recoil value based on the firemode selected, the recoil inaccuracy goes up the further you get in the current firemode. I'd like the idea of having recoil resulting into headshots for an expirienced soldier

[Tasoth cmdr.]

Don't like that recoil idea. think it's allready counted in weapon stats.
Ex: laser pistol -- no recoil -- high accuracy
     particle pistol -- high recoil, low weight -- medium accuracy
     particle cannon -- high recoil, high weight -- low accuracy

nothing else is needed