New soldier stat increase system

[eleazar]

Why do you guys want to make the game even more difficult? The power of alien weaponry increases during the game, you face tougher and more deadly aliens...and you are going to LOOSE health for barely surving an encounter...do this on some consectutive missions and you have no chance to save your hard built up 50-mission trooper, cause he has only 50 HP left and will almost die from any hit....NO FUN!

The devs may correct me if i'm wrong, but while this game is supposed to be win-able it's not supposed to be easy.  You are going up against an unknown and superior enemy.  For the proper atmosphere of desperation, you are supposed to take casualties.  That's why there's a way to hire new guys.  Having multiple ways for the soldiers to be taken out of battle-fitness besides being instantly killed on the battlefield IMHO emphasizes the feel of a desperate fight.

[nemchenk]

No problems there, but I am with SpaceWombat on this -- non-fatal wounds are taken care of by healing. Until we get stat- and skill-improving implants, that is

[SpaceWombat]

The devs may correct me if i'm wrong, but while this game is supposed to be win-able it's not supposed to be easy.  You are going up against an unknown and superior enemy.  For the proper atmosphere of desperation, you are supposed to take casualties.  That's why there's a way to hire new guys.  Having multiple ways for the soldiers to be taken out of battle-fitness besides being instantly killed on the battlefield IMHO emphasizes the feel of a desperate fight.

You are right but the same difficulty level would be met by simply saying "health = 0". Whether you cripple a soldier to a point where he simply cannot be useful because chances are too high to have a loss at a medium shot or you just take him off the list by health = 0 is not that much of a difference.
It would be slower over several missions but that's just another disadvantage in many cases as I think of it. I will make compromises saying "well, he is still a good soldier". And next time he will be pumped up a bit with xp again and then I have to pull the break and get him off the list. Just another point to let me play paranoid and avoid any losses or woundings and play every mission 5 times on average. 
I like better a clear cut and .

We can save code work on that one I think. In the end -as always- it is a matter of balance. If the weapons/armour balance is right you do not need to mess around with the health bar too much. It would be just another complicated variable the player effectively is not really caring about.

[shevegen]

Hi,

this all looks quite complicated

I'd have a few request:

- The XP system should be simpler.
- I would not give XP for any movement. Failed hits would also not account for XP.

- Getting injured (and healing up too) should give a reward for the time its healed.
- I would not make any MAX XP cap anywhere, however I would make "learning" or training
more and more expensive. My reasoning for this would be that such a trained soldier
would always learn more and more, but he could benefit only a tiny tiny tiny bit
more and more. It was written that there could be a the

XP cap is there to prevent "training abuse"

but I would instead make the cost grow faster - there should never be "too much
training" (if one has the time to learn... if you train in reallife, you also have to eat and
sleep a bit better normally. You cant make weightlifting and drink only beer and eat
only pork meat and then expect to go on a marathon and win it without sleeping
much )

Btw although it doesnt belong here, I would love to see temporary enhancements, i.e. the soldier would inject into himself some pain drugs to continue fighting, surrounded by aliens...

My main gripe is that the whole XP system seems too complicated. I am sure you guys have good
reasons for having a sophisticated XP system, but one aspect is also how new players learn a
concept, and I think the XP system could be a bit simpler than the one presented here.

The power of 0.6 makes sure no veteran soldier will ever be surpassed by a newer soldier, even if the newer one had better initial stats, as long as the veteran keeps training.

That is of course your decision to make, I have however one thing to throw in, which is that sometimes there is a little bit of luck involved too. For example, the elite sniper might be losing out to a new recruit slowly (because this recruit trains more and is smarter to learn from something, and has slightly better eyes and better genes *g*).
I just think that a tiny bit of luck should also be a factor in having benefits from constant training, and in this scenario it would be two veterans. However, as I wrote earlier that I am for simplifications, I am totally fine with capping it in such a way, after all luck adds to the complexity too (and is hard to predict, although to be honest, I dont think the system should be totally _predictable_ to a player...).

BTW I think killing or capturing an alien should give extra XP

Also how are the physical stats improved?

Last but not least, a XP system is great to have because everyone starts to care for his veteran soldier that killed 58 aliens and has trained so much that it really is a HUGE loss to not have him around anymore... ;-)

[Surrealistik]

You are right but the same difficulty level would be met by simply saying "health = 0". Whether you cripple a soldier to a point where he simply cannot be useful because chances are too high to have a loss at a medium shot or you just take him off the list by health = 0 is not that much of a difference.
It would be slower over several missions but that's just another disadvantage in many cases as I think of it. I will make compromises saying "well, he is still a good soldier". And next time he will be pumped up a bit with xp again and then I have to pull the break and get him off the list. Just another point to let me play paranoid and avoid any losses or woundings and play every mission 5 times on average. 
I like better a clear cut and .

Wombat, if you're getting this same soldier repeatedly injured to such an extent that health loss is triggered each time, then that is precisely what you deserve; a debilitated cripple. It really isn't that hard to avoid serious damage to your troops on most missions, especially once better armour is researched.

[eleazar]

this all looks quite complicated

You don't really have to understand the rules in this thread to play.  If i'm not mistaken, all you need to worry about is using a soldier, and his stats will increase at the maximum rate.  If you want him to get better at sniping, use him to snipe aliens.

But "training" (by which we mean doing things irrational repetitive things, like repeatedly stunning and hurting an alien with your weakest weapon to make extra XP) will generally not do any good.

You've asked a lot of questions that are addressed in this thread.  Please read it from the start.

[SpaceWombat]

Wombat, if you're getting this same soldier repeatedly injured to such an extent that health loss is triggered each time, then that is precisely what you deserve; a debilitated cripple. It really isn't that hard to avoid serious damage to your troops on most missions, especially once better armour is researched.

I hope you are right, it is still a matter of balance. Over 40-50 missions I fear it will be luck dependent, though. Just my opinion for now, we'll see what will happen if balancing is done.
If it turns out to be a wearout for veterans I pray for a switch to bottom-fixed health.

[Surrealistik]

I hope you are right, it is still a matter of balance. Over 40-50 missions I fear it will be luck dependent, though. Just my opinion for now, we'll see what will happen if balancing is done.
If it turns out to be a wearout for veterans I pray for a switch to bottom-fixed health.

Between advanced armour, sound tactics and functioning cover generators like the smoke grenade, I don't think serious injury should be too common. We will see though. My biggest concern at present assuming this system is implimented is the perhaps too sudden appearance of plasma blasters and particle weapons (these typically show up before nanocomposite armour is researched).

Further on the subject of health, I think that max health values in excess of 100 (which we'll assume is an average or baseline), should afford minor percentage based universal damage reduction proportional to that excess. This reflects the general toughness of a trooper, and the truism that those in superior health can not only suffer more equivalent injuries without a fatality relative to someone less robust, but can also endure and weather wounds better too (smaller odds of complications, and the intact remainder is typically more capable of functioning).

[Psawhn]

I like the new proposed system. If anything, I'd add a slight accuracy/weapons boost for misses, as has already been stated. Unfortunately, how would the game differentiate between a miss on a targeted alien, and just random firing on walls? (Or even a hit on an alien that is not targeted?)

Perhaps an alternative proposal for the mind stat could be that it is increased slightly for almost any action, not just kills. This rewards supporting roles such as stunning an alien, using flashbombs or smoke grenades, being a medic - in general, teamwork skills. Perhaps this could even be extended to simple things like sighting an alien or civilian, rewarding scouting.

Unfortunately, some of these are in the list of usable statistics, which makes them unworkable for now.


Edit: Another thought: It could be that the underlying rules themselves can be complicated, as long as they're described simply. For example, saying "Firing at aliens will increase accuracy and proficiency with that weapon class," even though the actual increase is determined by some formula using the soldier's hits, misses, and existing mind, accuracy, and weapons skill. Anyone interested enough to know the exact formula will be able to understand and take advantage of the system quantitatively. Anyone who is only interested in the simple formula sees the direct results of his actions anyway qualitatively. (ie: That person sees that soldiers who take more shots at aliens tend to get better stat increases)

[nemchenk]

* nemchenk agrees with Psawhn

[eleazar]

Edit: Another thought: It could be that the underlying rules themselves can be complicated, as long as they're described simply...

True:  And sometimes it takes some fancy maths to make numbers do what humans naturally expect.

[TrashMan]

Wait...STRENGTH isn't used yet? Why not?

don't weapons and equipment have weight?

IMHO, STR should influence accuracy with heavier weapons, throwing range and speed when moving under heavy load.

Basicely sum up the weight of all items carried and use it to calculate STR increase. You can throw in the number of squares moved ..hm..

Maybe (total_weight * squares_moved)/100.

hmm, an average soldier would carry..let's say 40-50kg...maybe movement under weight could be tracked separately..After all, just standing there carrying 100kg is also making you stronger, but moving is a bigger strain on the muscles.

Also, why does speed increase more if moving chrouched? Speed is increased by running, not by walking slowly. Over-cautious players that never run with soldiers would get bigger speed increase than soldiers who run from cover to cover.

[TrashMan]

It really isn't that hard to avoid serious damage to your troops on most missions, especially once better armour is researched.

It's not that easy either. All it takes is one lucky shot from a alien ...one-hit-kill weapons, remember?

If soldiers are more easily crippled/killed, then you should balance it back somewhat by faster healing and/or training rooms (expensive) that increase the skill gain while in base.

[shevegen]

IMHO, STR should influence accuracy with heavier weapons, throwing range and speed when moving under heavy load.

I dont agree that it should influence accuracy with heavier weapons. Either you are strong enough to handle a weapon or not.

Strength should also not affect the throwing range too much but i agree - throwing a 100 kg stone will differ if the guy weighs 60kg or 160kg

I however TOTALLY agree about carrying load. I see this all the time, women arent as good carrying stuff compared to men simply because
they are weaker ... so I assume this has to do with MUSCLES

[TrashMan]

Really, you shouldn't be getting hit in the first place, and I strongly believe in some form of disincentive for suffering injury in lieu of restricting troops from participating in missions (while recovering) which would be truly annoying. Perhaps permanent reductions could be eliminated or reduced according to difficulty level, but they should exist. Honestly. If you let your soldiers consistantly suffer major injuries (which are required for hp loss, so you can make some mistakes), you deserve to suffer for it.

you say it as if it was easy. Chance to hit means just that - chance. My sniper with 90% CTH might still miss, while the alien shooting at me from the other side of the map with a plasma rifle might score a great hit - *puff* there goes most of my health.

Keep in mind that alien weapons do a heluvalot of damage. Your soldiers loses at least 50% health, in most cases it's closer to 80% or insta-death. Having to heal him like crazy, pull him back and then send him to the hospital to recover is already penalty enough.