General > Discussion
Melee attacks -- roadmap?
Aiki-Knight:
--- Quote from: TrashMan on June 02, 2008, 10:05:21 pm ---WRONG. A common misconception really. Two-handers weighed from 1.5kg to 3.5kg in general, with the biggest, ceremonial blade weighing 5kg (and it wasn't meant to be used in battle). They were also well balanced and fast weapons..exceedingly deadly. Mastering such a weapon earned a soldier DOUBLE pay.
but it would be a bit impractical indoors, yes :P
--- End quote ---
I suppose the point is moot, but there's lot of information suggesting such weapons were heavier. Medieval two-handed weapons were intended to pierce plate armor, and needed to be heavy. A standard heavy kevlar vest and full load of webbing and weapon is already quite heavy. Running around with a very large sword would be difficult. Not impossible, but questionable in terms of practicality. I myself have often wondered wheher a nice sharp katana could be added to the troops. Again, though, a hip-slung sword would indeed bang into every doorframe and chair unless the agent were very careful about it, and that's likely a hindrance to special-forces types who must be as stealthy as they can.
That said, if someone codes swords, you can bet my best agents / door-stormers will be carrying them. In the right situation, a sword, axe, or spear would put a melee fighter at tremendous advantage over an opponent armed with a short knife, or nothing. The question would be to choose the right agent(s), and the right application(s). I can see how hammering down on an Ortnok's skill with a large battle-axe in melee fighting would be preferable to trying to stab him with a standard knife. If someone coded throwing stars, I'd try them. If I know anything, anything at all about programming, I'd try it. Sorry!
After all, if someone coded all these weapons and made them realistic, it would be up to the player to decide what works best, and the divergence of styles of each player would become interesting. It's not really fair to ask the creators to do this, but if other people joined who'd do it for them, sweet. You could potentially have players trying to make agents/teams who could subdue the aliens with modernised medievalised fighting. I remember NKF on the XCOM3 forum does this. Over the years of playing, he is at the point where he prefers power-sword kills. As long as the weapon is not made to be silly or grossly over-effective, the potential is fascinating.
Aiki-Knight:
--- Quote from: DanielOR on June 01, 2008, 08:53:46 am ---My $0.02
Bayonets can only apply to rifles, I really do not easily imagine such attachments on machine guns or GL's - so, we are talking about a fair bit of coding work for a modification of what - 3 weapons?
I've had several opportunities to discuss hand-to-hand and martial arts with a member of Israeli special forces (suspect any country's SF would have said the same). his training, while very rigorous and bloody, was aimed at pushing the opponent away, not beating them into submission. Because, he told me, you should always have ammo. (believe there was a very valid point earlier of low ammo not being a problem). Why do the Israeli SF pay that much attention to hand fighting? "so you can push a terrorist away, maybe knock him to the ground. Then take a step back as you draw your pistol and shoot him in the head."
Much the same, I imagine a PHALANX soldier would rather push an alien away and then either shoot or run. Another valid earlier point was engaging hand-to-hand with a huge (forget armored) monster is not anyone's idea of a good day.
So, coding recommendation:
Implement "shove" that (is successful) pushes an alien at least 1 square away. Exact distance and success rate depends on comparison of strengths and sizes. Push can be an automated RF action, i.e. if alien walks up to a soldier, soldier pushes them back. If they do, alien can't cut them. As far as weapons - sure, pushing with something large in your hands is way better than pushing with a pistol or empty hands.
This (if easy) could be short term solution, until detailed h-2-h system is decided upon.
--- End quote ---
This is indeed a very good point, and well-taken. A little anti-climactic, but well-argued and sensible. I think we can say that there's a chance an agent is completely out of ammo and is swarmed by an enemy. So, if some hand-to-hand were incorporated, just a little practical "fighting" would be sensible as well. A couple of strikes and throws. Throws also create space in order to resume knife or firearms-based solutions.
The thing is, this game is so good already, that what we're talking about is not making a good game, or even a great game, or even a fantastic game. We're talking about how to make THE game of all games. The fantasy game. The game that does every little thing we ever dreamed of in our XCOM-starved imaginations. We're talking about merging Rainbow Six with every really decent marines/special forces vs. aliens movie made, and we want to throw in some martial-arts movies and MMA. Just as it is, the game is just awesome. These discussion, if implemented, would be great. Would I ask the developers to do it? Well, I'm reluctant - I don't want to seem ungrateful. Still, these are good ideas and are fun to talk about!
TrashMan:
--- Quote from: Aiki-Knight on June 03, 2008, 11:54:22 pm ---I suppose the point is moot, but there's lot of information suggesting such weapons were heavier. Medieval two-handed weapons were intended to pierce plate armor, and needed to be heavy. A standard heavy kevlar vest and full load of webbing and weapon is already quite heavy. Running around with a very large sword would be difficult. Not impossible, but questionable in terms of practicality. I myself have often wondered wheher a nice sharp katana could be added to the troops. Again, though, a hip-slung sword would indeed bang into every doorframe and chair unless the agent were very careful about it, and that's likely a hindrance to special-forces types who must be as stealthy as they can.
--- End quote ---
Sigh...the best source for anything relating to matrial arts of the medieval-renesance era is ARMA. A whole lot of very interesting essays. Read this:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html
you might also want to check out this one:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/TopMyths.htm
Melee weapons are not used today in general, but they could be incredibly deadly under right circumstances. Tight allies, ambushes, jumping an unsuspecting alien - a chop with a battleaxe or a greatsword delivers a huge amount of force - not to mention the shock and trauma.
Even armored opponents could get pulverized.
If modern materials are used, it would be even more effective. However, the mantra for today is - travel light, use the gun. What's the point of having them if you have to resort to such "primitive" weapons anyway, right? Thing is, even primitive weapons can be very effective.
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