General > Discussion
Melee attacks -- roadmap?
Jagger:
Swords were still used during WWII in some parts. And they were effective, until they came up against the fully automatics, which ruined them.
And guns have only gotten better.
Personally when playing I look at the MP as being like the MetalStorm, which would really mess you up heavily compared to a sword, sure, you can stab a guy, slash teh crap out of him, whatever. But is it really more effective than putting the gun up close to them, and just letting loose with a few rounds at high speed. The velocity of the bullets would only be higher due to shorter distance.
Heavier weapons, stuff like the bolter rifle, I'd be holding waist height, someone comes around the corner, it's pointing at their gut. I'd just fire off a round (RF) and it would go through them, faster than a sword.
Problem imo is that people are comparing a sword in it's scabbard to a holstered gun. These people are in a LZ, they have their guns out, and expecting enemies. From readied, pulling the trigger is faster than swinging a sword or thrusting a knife.
Knives have high killing power, kerblades even more so, I say raise the damage (Ok, maybe not, it's pretty freakin high) but have aliens RF, guy comes running at you with a knife, you'd fire off a few shots his way, if he's alive and able to fight, you're going down.
All the aliens have throats which they use for breathing, armour does not seem to protect that, if headshots cause higher damage, knives should own, once you manage to hit.
Aiki-Knight:
I'd love the potential for skilled hand-to-hand combat, but hand-to-hand is a last resort in such conflicts. Let me address some of the thoughts here:
1. I'd rather not wrestle an Ortnok. It's several times stronger than any human. Anyone with wrestling or Judo experience knows that super-strong wrestling opponents are a problem. Better to knock him out or go for throat/eyes. Or run away!
2. Brass knuckles - who's going to have time to slip them on? A hand-to-hand fight is going to happen on short notice. Anyway, brass knuckles can break your own fingers if you're wearing them at the wrong angle when your punch. It doesn't seem realistic.
3. I wish I could do the animations, but basically, I suck. I'm sorry. I wish I could. I really do wish I could do something to help these fine, fine people.
4. A very simple assortment of moves: punches to face (cross & hook), front/side kick at waist level or lower, a Judo throw or two(maybe Judo's seoi-nage and Aikido's kubi-otoshi). Some newaza (ground-fighting/wrestling) is a fun idea, but too hard to script and also impractical. You don't want to be lying on the ground grappling when your enemy's pals show up - no escape mobility that way. If this is implemented, just keep it simple and elegant. Fancy stuff usually doesn't work and would be hard to do in a full suit of body armor.
Aiki-Knight:
--- Quote from: nemchenk on March 10, 2008, 02:58:18 pm ---Well, I can't agree with you there. Neither the Roman Legion, nor the Phalanx, were the unstoppable war machines that you describe. Sure, if you stab a sack of straw with a spear or a short sword, you will "kill" it instantly. If you stab a man with a shield and a sword, it all depends on how good you are vs how good he is.
A bullet travels at hypersonic speeds. A stabbing sword or spear is much slower. Ipso Facto: you can do something about an incoming melee attack (dodge, parry), you really can't against a bullet. Unless you are Agent Smith.
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Now, back to the discussion on melee damage and TUs. We have several choices here:
- Make melee attacks fast or slow
- Make melee attack damage high or low
- Make melee attack damage spread tight or loose
At the momnet, I favour fast attacks with either low damage or a large spread. Fast attacks with a low damage means that while you can kill your target with melee, you will give him multiple opportunity for Reaction Fire. Seems like a nice balance of game mechanics to me, preventing this turning into.
Another mechanic which would be nice is giving Primary weapons (longarms and heavy weapons) a minimum range of 1 square, so that it is impossible to shoot at targets right up against you with those weapons.
What do you think? Lets try and stay on-course :)
nemchenk
--- End quote ---
I think you're both right. The gladius isn't all bad an idea: the aliens do carry and use blades. A two-handed claymore etc is just too heavy and cumbersome - even sheathed, it'd be banging into every doorframe and letting the whole world know where the agent was. A more manageable short sword could be useful in room-clearing, where you could be faced with an alien standing right in front of an agent. A gladius or waki-zashi (short "samurai" sword) could work. I'd like the option.
But evolution has a way of working on its own: modern soldiers, including special forces, don't carry swords because it's not worth the weight, burden. Firearms have largely eliminated the efficacy of large bladed weapons, even though we think it would be cool. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for it, but I understand if the creators don't make it any kind of priority. If more of us knew how to program, who knows - we could have samurai-ninja agents hurling throwing stars and wielding razor-sharp swords for assassination-type kills, doing cool Jiu Jitsu, but even so, we wouldn't want to make this highly realistic and detailed game "kinda lame" for all the medieval interruptions to what is otherwise a very special-forces type combat.
DanielOR:
My $0.02
Bayonets can only apply to rifles, I really do not easily imagine such attachments on machine guns or GL's - so, we are talking about a fair bit of coding work for a modification of what - 3 weapons?
I've had several opportunities to discuss hand-to-hand and martial arts with a member of Israeli special forces (suspect any country's SF would have said the same). his training, while very rigorous and bloody, was aimed at pushing the opponent away, not beating them into submission. Because, he told me, you should always have ammo. (believe there was a very valid point earlier of low ammo not being a problem). Why do the Israeli SF pay that much attention to hand fighting? "so you can push a terrorist away, maybe knock him to the ground. Then take a step back as you draw your pistol and shoot him in the head."
Much the same, I imagine a PHALANX soldier would rather push an alien away and then either shoot or run. Another valid earlier point was engaging hand-to-hand with a huge (forget armored) monster is not anyone's idea of a good day.
So, coding recommendation:
Implement "shove" that (is successful) pushes an alien at least 1 square away. Exact distance and success rate depends on comparison of strengths and sizes. Push can be an automated RF action, i.e. if alien walks up to a soldier, soldier pushes them back. If they do, alien can't cut them. As far as weapons - sure, pushing with something large in your hands is way better than pushing with a pistol or empty hands.
This (if easy) could be short term solution, until detailed h-2-h system is decided upon.
Darkpriest667:
Daniel that is a genius Idea and i was about to mention the same issue within the next week. Almost every standard infantryman is taught some sort of self defense.
But this brings up another issue for me.
aliens are from a 1G world or a 10G world.... if its 10G world then the aliens should have superior unarmed combat capabilities compared to humans. i.e. you can only push him but he CAN beat you to death in 1 or 2 blows with relative ease.
Its just a few more things that we've been looking at as far as the "reality" of the game. in the old xcom it was assumed that aliens were from mars... About .6 G meaning they would have been significantly weaker in hand to hand combat. UFO AI has not addressed the issue of "where" so we cant really know "how" until the where is established.
any one else thought about the gravitational homeworld differential besides myself?
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