General > Discussion
Melee attacks -- roadmap?
knightsubzero:
first off, at close range a sword is far more lethal and faster than a gun, (pistols however are quite fast) but if you put me and you in a small room me with a knife or sword, you with rifle, you would not be getting up (yes i know how to use a sword, knife and various other weapons), a rifle butt slam would not however be an instant kill, especially with these aliens.
that being said....
a knife is faster, a bash with the gun is also fast (pistols exepted (perhaps)), so time units for bashing with a gun should be less than shooting maybe about 7 -12 for a bash attack with rifle (bayonets would be nice), but perhaps damage should be less, and random effect with death vs knockout.
this will make it an option if your really really close, but normally you would just shoot em, cause the range is the safer option.
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off topic....
i aggree that medieval weapons are far more lethal than modern weapons....however that is only at close range, guns were invented for 3 main reasons, 1 they had good range, 2 they had good accuracy (less training), 3 they could punch thru armour at that range.....a sword or a mace could punch thru armour just as effectivley, the armour way mainly used to stop arrows and untrained mellee attacks, a skilled fighter would attack the gaps in the armour, and with a heavy weapon the armour did very little against it.
modern rifles are more lethal than medievil weapons, but only at their appropriate range, once you get into close quarters its how fast you can react, pistols however are designed for close quarter fighting, so they are quite fast weapons also (crap at any range over 5 meters). you can survive a bullet (maybe not a 50cal), but you cant survive a missing head or having your body put into 2 parts.
the rifle was at first designed to replace the crossbow and the long bow, the soldiers for a long time (up until world war 2 in some cases), still carried large melee weapons. after world war 2 these were replaced (slowly), by the pistol.
nemchenk:
Thanks for your feedback, knightsubzero. Some interesting ideas. Leaving aside the debate of which is more deadly, melee weapons or guns, I would like to discuss some points you bring up:
- I will be working on a patch / code change that will allow multiple types of damage per attack. So, these types of "blunt" attacks will carry something like 60/40 (?) split of stun and kill damage. I should probably start another thread about that... ;)
- You mention that you think a bash with a pistol should take longer than a riflebutt -- that's an interesting idea, probably correct. It would make some interesting changes to the way we think of the game: At the moment, these attacks are essentially a proportion of the weapon's Snap Shot firemod. Pistols may be quite different then -- their Snap Shot would take less time than their Bludgeon attack, making the Bludgeon really only useful to subdue, or when out of ammo. Did I understand you correctly?
- Finally, while I did originally add a Bayonet attack, I decided to remove it because I felt it would make the Knife totally obsolete. I mean, why bother if you have the bayonet? It's perhaps not totally realistic, but it is my concession to gameplay balance.
- An idea that I am leaning towards at the moment is minimum ranges for longarms, so only pistols would be allowed to shoot at point-blank range. Thoughts?
Cheers! :)
nemchenk
knightsubzero:
not exactly (unless it was a typo)...but kinda....a pistol would be quite fast, whether shooting or bashing, however pistol as a bash would not be too effective, cause its not that heavy, basically bashing with a pistol would be less dangerous than bashing with a rifle but it would be faster cause a pistol is quite a light weapon.
not being able to shoot with a rifle style, or heavy weapon in melee range would be a good idea i think...perhaps with a mouse over kind of warning.....something like "cannot shoot at this range" with the rifle greyed out, but the weapon bash would have a time units cost and would be ok....heavy equipment, like the rocket launcher, would either be a very high time unit cost (cause its slow, but maybe cause more damage), or you not be able to lift it with maybe a too heavy warning.
the bayonet would likely make knives obsolete, so i can see your point there, a bash with the rifle wouldnt, cause people would use the knife due to cheaper time unit cost (people would carry a knife and pistol) and the damage would be greater, people would still use the stun rod cause its a guaranteed (pretty much), of alien capture.
i would suggest being able to use a pistol in mellee range, the pistol is the modern mellee weapon, this would make the pistol a more important weapon.
knightsubzero:
i would say something like this....i am not up with my ufopaedia knowledge, so some interpretation may be required also i may have left some out (probably in fact).
mellee weapons.
knife: very low - med damage 4 TU.
pistol whip (pistol, machine pistol, micro shotgun, maybe smg): very low to low damage, very low knockout chance, low-med stun chance. 4-5 tu
alien knife: low to high damage 8 TU
2nd alien knife: med to very high dam 8TU.
rifle bash: low - med damage, low knockout chance, med - high stun chance. 10-12 TU (maybe 8 for shotgun)
stun rod: no to very low damage, high knockout chance, very high stun chance 8-12 tu.
advanced stun rod: same as stun rod, with maybe a 3-5 square range.
the rest of the weapons leave TU as is.
close combat weapons
pistol - low damage, can be fired in mellee, very accurate 0-3 squares, accurate 3-5 squares, inaccurate 5-10 squares, very inaccurate 10+ squares.
machine pistol- as above but take off one square for each accuracy range.
flamethrower- max range, 6 squares, med chance of fear. high - very damage can be fired in mellee.
micro shotgun - melee fireing, same range as pistol or machine pistol, higher damage.
shotgun - cannot be used in mellee (must us bash, but at cheaper cost), range 0-5 very high accuracy, 5-10 high accuracy, 10 -12 med accuracy, 12 - 15 low accuracy, 15+ very low accuracy.
assault weapons.
all assault: no melle range, 0-10 very accurate, 10-15 accurate, 15-20 med accuracy, 20 + low accuracy.
heavy machine gun - same but slightly less accuracy.
grenades
flashbang - high stun chance.
shockwave grenade (researchable) -high stun chance, med knockout chance.
normal grenades should maybe have a slight stun chance as well.
and incendary should have a slight fear chance.
other weapons
grenade launchers and rocket launchers should have about the same accuracy as assault guns, with limited to no bashing ability.
sniper rifle should be able to be bashable and should have the most accuracy out of any weapon.
Doctor J:
--- Quote from: nemchenk on March 19, 2008, 01:53:31 pm ---- Finally, while I did originally add a Bayonet attack, I decided to remove it because I felt it would make the Knife totally obsolete. I mean, why bother if you have the bayonet? It's perhaps not totally realistic, but it is my concession to gameplay balance.
- An idea that I am leaning towards at the moment is minimum ranges for longarms, so only pistols would be allowed to shoot at point-blank range. Thoughts?
--- End quote ---
Six of one, half dozen of the other. A bayonet [at least what i had when i was in service] is a knife with a clamp to attach just below the muzzle of the rifle. You can also use it in your palm like a normal knife. So in game terms, we could say that the bayonet attack is not allowed unless the soldier is carrying a knife and a rifle or assault weapon. It would be going too far to require the player to click somewhere to actually install the knife on the rifle... unless ... it could go in the "Extension" space above the weapon? I don't yet know what goes in there.
Of course i'm going to agree about longarms in melee. ;D
--- Quote from: knightsubzero on March 19, 2008, 11:28:05 pm ---grenade launchers and rocket launchers should have about the same accuracy as assault guns, with limited to no bashing ability.
sniper rifle should be able to be bashable and should have the most accuracy out of any weapon.
--- End quote ---
I would quibble with only a few items. The grenade launcher still has the butt of a rifle and could still bash the same. I agree the rocket launcher is too delicate to be used in melee, it would be destroyed. Actually, the sniper rifle would be in the same category. Any bending to the barrel, or even jarring to the scope, would ruin the accuracy. It would still fire, but would be useless for sniping.
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