Idea: Critical Strike

[Bandobras]

Melee has currently 100% accuracy (AFAIK). So no skill has any effect whatsoever on melee (no close skill, nor accuracy skill, nor power skill). I wondered how to change this and here is my idea:

Whenever the angles[PITCH] and angles[YAW] happen to be both < .01  assume a critical hit occured and increase damage by (1-acc)*100, where acc is an accuracy factor from the skills. This way melee will always hit critically and sometimes also lucky snipers will, etc.

BTW. We are thinking with BTAxis about the power skill having an effect on close and heavy weapons (just as accuracy has on all weapons). What do you think? Should this be just an average of accuracy and power taken two times, for close and heavy weapons? (See the wiki Skills page.)

P.S. Of course there should be a funny message or a nice eye candy for a critical hit...

[sirg]

I was also thinking about critical hits. This must work with sniper rifles too. Anyway, there is an other issue - some weapons should do much more damage at close range or point blank, and this is very important.

I think it's awful to shoot an alien at point blank range with a sniper rifle and don't kill it with that shot. Likewise with almost any weapon. Don't you hate it when you shot an alien in the eye with the sniper rifle and it stills grins at you? I think introducing critical hits would change the gameplay a bit, but because of that you shoudn't apply this to all weapons.

 :idea: You could decrease the critical hit chance and make it very high for close range, 2-3 squares.

 :idea: Being able to shoot body parts like the head or limbs. A succesful hit to the head should always be lethal. I don't see any alien living with a sniper rifle bullet in its head for long

The pistols in the game are pretty much useless, but with the chance of a critical hit, they could be useful.

Hmm, what if an alien has a 2-inch osmium plate around it's skull? Can a bullet actually penetrate that?

[sirg]

Hmm, what if an alien has a 2-inch osmium plate around it's skull?

Yeah, right... which also featured a plasma turret on it's head...

As I understand from the UFOpedia, the sniper rifle shots 20mm antimaterial rounds at super velocites.. very nasty weapon... Look... even with a 2-inch osmium-xenotronium-plus(tm) armor, the alien would be knocked down by the impact like a turtle hit by a speeding train. Besides the fall and headache, it might get unconscious.

And from point blank range, I'm aiming for the eye man! Do all aliens wear "2 inch osmium" thick glases?

[Winter]

For once I agree with sirg. You realise that two inches is more armour than some tanks had in World War 2, right?

Regards,
Winter

[grumpy]

Do you folks have any idea how hard it is to hit a moving target at close range with a sniper rifle? You are basically either shooting blind or from the hip... A .50 caliber rifle firing antimaterial rounds can be used sitting with support or lying down, but if you are even a little bit out of position or unprepared it hurts like hell. It is difficult enough to hold it and almost impossible to follow or lead a moving target at close range, you would be lucky to hit an elephant that way. Imagine what it would be like with a 20mm gun instead. If you did manage to hit though, it would be messy.

For close combat you want a light and relatively short gun that is easy to follow the target with. It is probably easier to hit someone in the eye with a pistol or a SMG than with a sniper rifle. At long range, the opposite applies.

[Winter]

Do you folks have any idea how hard it is to hit a moving target at close range with a sniper rifle? You are basically either shooting blind or from the hip... A .50 caliber rifle firing antimaterial rounds can be used sitting with support or lying down, but if you are even a little bit out of position or unprepared it hurts like hell. It is difficult enough to hold it and almost impossible to follow or lead a moving target at close range, you would be lucky to hit an elephant that way. Imagine what it would be like with a 20mm gun instead. If you did manage to hit though, it would be messy.

For close combat you want a light and relatively short gun that is easy to follow the target with. It is probably easier to hit someone in the eye with a pistol or a SMG than with a sniper rifle. At long range, the opposite applies.

I know this, and my sniper rifle article most certainly reflects it. In the Recommended Doctrine segment, it's highly recommended to switch to a backup weapon rather than try to engage with the sniper rifle at close range. If the game doesn't already reflect this properly, I hope we can balance the stats so that it will. We're up for a major bugfixing of the aiming code anyway.

Regards,
Winter

[sirg]

There are sniper rifles, like the Barrett XM500 (.50 cal) which are lighter (11 kgs) and feature minimal recoil compared to the high caliber. I'm not saying that it's realistic to fire a sniper rifle from point blank, but it's not impossible.

I was refering more to the nature of the impact - an Browning .50 cal bullet has 46 grams  :!:  and travels with an average of 800 meters per second. There are also special bullet types, like depleted Uranium (DU) rounds, and Tungsten. DU is 70% denser than lead, thus less aerodynamic drag and better penetration. Currently DU rounds are used on large caliber guns, 30, 25 and 20 mm on gunships, planes (A10) and helicopters.

Anyway, the designers should take in consideration the close range shots. It's much more easier to hit a target at close range and for some weapons, the shots are devastating. I would like to see the critical hit concept implemented into the game.

for grumpy; if you want check these:
About DU and other improved ammo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium
Barret sniper rifle http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn73-e.htm

[Winter]

There are sniper rifles, like the Barrett XM500 (.50 cal) which are lighter (11 kgs) and feature minimal recoil compared to the high caliber. I'm not saying that it's realistic to fire a sniper rifle from point blank, but it's not impossible.

Do you have any idea how heavy 11kg is, especially for a rifle? The old battle rifles like the FN-FAL were considered quite heavy and at 6kg loaded. The M16A2 is under 4.5kg. And when you factor in the extreme weapon length of anti-materiel rifles, their free-hand accuracy is uniformly terrible. Even technology can't make up for the fact that you'd be using the weapon in a way that is completely contrary to its design.

Regards,
Winter

[sirg]

Look, I could barely lift and hold an 11 kgs rifle and don't know about aiming to shot it...  :oops:   ... but wanted to say that 11 kgs for the Barrett is a great improvement from the 18 kgs Armalite AR-50 rifle... and probably by the year 2084, sniper rifles will get lighter and better. It's up to you what weapon stats will set in the end...

If it's unrealistic, then... you have to modify something in the game, like the sniper rifle can't be shot while standing, or while standing you can't take aimed shots, only snap shots with lesser accuracy. At the moment, the sniper shots very well from standing position, even from close range. That's why I replied, because shot an alien from very close - I put the barrel to it's nose and fired... but it didn't die That should have been a critical!

[grumpy]

I think that critical hits should reflect both the type of weapon and the accuracy.
A critical hit is like hitting a vital organ, for example the head.
For a rocket launcher, the damage rating represents the actual damage fairly well and there is now reason to have a critical hit. The accuracy is low and it doesn't really matter where on the alien you hit unless you are firing anti-tank rounds.
A sniper rifle at long range or a pistol at close range is quite different, the general damage capability is low unless you hit something vital and relatively unprotected. The critical hit is the reason for these weapons to exist.

I put the barrel to it's nose and fired... but it didn't die    That should have been a critical! :wink:

If you didn't just blow a chunk out of his backpack and give him one hell of a ringing ear  :wink:

[grumpy]

I know this, and my sniper rifle article most certainly reflects it.

Yes, guru, I once again humble myself at your feet awed by your inspiration and forethought  :wink:

[sirg]

The idea of critical hits mainly implies luck. We can also call it "lucky shot" if you like. I don't think we have to came with a real physics model to sort this out. It would complicate things and will be hard to implement. A simpler concept would do.
I think critical hits are very important and fun for such a game. The critical hit should be just a percent - the chance of doing deadly damage. This chance should mainly depend on range, soldier's stats (mind, accuracy, weapon skill) and weapon. It doesn't matter if it's a pistol or a blaster, but some weapons should have a better chance of scoring a critical than others - you should have a better chance with the sniper rifle than with a pistol, but again it's a question of range and other factors, mentioned above. As for the rocket launcher, I say any direct hit should be critical...

In some games the whole idea was something like this - if you hit the target then some "dice" were rolled for the critical hit, taking some factors into consideration, like I said. If you were lucky than your hit was a critical one

[grumpy]

The idea of critical hits mainly implies luck. We can also call it "lucky shot" if you like. I don't think we have to came with a real physics model to sort this out.

I agree and disagree :wink: . What I mean is that it should be plausible and that the game should be more flexible to different tactics. A critical hit is about causing more damage than typical for that weapon and it has an inherent random (lucky shot) factor, but can also be modified by circumstances. I'd say a maximum five to ten percent of the hits and maybe one quarter of that totally random and rest dictated by circumstances, such as properties of weapon, shooter and target. Higher probabilities would be difficult to balance, I think...

It would complicate things and will be hard to implement. A simpler concept would do. I think critical hits are very important and fun for such a game. The critical hit should be just a percent - the chance of doing deadly damage.

Not that much, but a simple version could of course be implemented first.

[sirg]

Not that much, but a simple version could of course be implemented first.

So you are with the "realists". For me the mechanics of the game matter less,  what principle from reality you modeled through pure science.  I'm more concerned about the fun factor - I don't want a sniping simulator which gets boring and predictable after you get the hang of it. The idea of "luck" versus a long sum of circumstances (for some of which I plea to be considered) is to have some unexpected outcomes - I think that a lucky shot is always something cool that in some cases you tell about to your friends/x-com buddies.

Mainly I don't disagree with you, but want to stress that this concern about realism is making people spend to much time debating and perfecting a model which will always be incomplete and flawed, while it could be made fun and simple. Games are for fun and should be fun. Don't forget that it's a game and not a pure educational simulation.