Medikits

[BTAxis]

The medikit will change, so that argument is invalid. More importantly, the decision has been made. No amount of arguing here is going to change it.

[Surrealistik]

Lol, even if the medikit changes, armour damage is still a meaningful factor in so long as soldiers can survive several hits, but if you're adamant on sticking with the status quo, so be it, I have better things to do with my time than chew you out about something you refuse to budge on.

[eleazar]

• having wounded body parts, the maximum number of HP is limited and some modifiers are applied to other stats (like accuracy for head or arm injuries)

I would recommend that these modifiers range in severity all the way to: unconsciousness for the rest of the mission.  Of course if the damage is too great, death would result as it does now.

IMHO if a highly (but not horribly) damaged soldier would fall down and be out for the rest of the mission, it would keep much of the drama of your team being picked off one by one, without the player quitting whenever a good soldier goes down.

Also the amount of space between death and consciousness could be based in part on the difficulty level, so the new player might not need so many other things nerfed to survive.

[SpaceWombat]

Considering that minor wounds will not bleed you to death and some wounds (like secondary injuries by fire) would cauterize the tissue and prevent you from dying this way I would like to discuss the possibility to set that "bleeding flag" only on soldiers who have taken a serious injury (more than x hitpoints lost at once).

I would really be p***ed if one of my soldiers gets a 1 hitpoint shrapnel into his butt and turns out to be a TU eater because the mission takes that long he would end up crippled/dead.

[kracken]

I would recommend that these modifiers range in severity all the way to: unconsciousness for the rest of the mission.  Of course if the damage is too great, death would result as it does now.
Also the amount of space between death and consciousness could be based in part on the difficulty level, so the new player might not need so many other things nerfed to survive.

I would really be p***ed if one of my soldiers gets a 1 hitpoint shrapnel into his butt and turns out to be a TU eater because the mission takes that long he would end up crippled/dead.

Those 2 points can be easily handled with Alinour proposition: 1 level of wound doesn't need to correspond to 1 HP.
You can increase 1 level of wound each time you lose for example 20 HP (this value may depend on soldier strengh, difficulty setting, ...) , and become unconscious if wound level become higher than 4 (for example).

[sirg]

The medikit will change, so that argument is invalid. More importantly, the decision has been made. No amount of arguing here is going to change it.

You are still developing the game, and you aren't even close to a beta or a pre-release. Why are the devs so neutral to the players' input, when alot of valuable comments are being made, some based on a strong background with similar games.

How can you decide upon a game mechanic so early on in the development stage when you aren't even done with the testing phase, and still are experimenting with stats and models? You are all saying that you want a realistic game, yet when realistic models are being proposed they are dismissed.

[BTAxis]

I've explained this to people many times, but fine, here goes one more time.

We make this game as a community effort, but that doesn't mean the community dictates how we make it. We make design decisions, and we stick with them. Why? Because if we are going to change something just because people are complaining about it, then we'll keep changing everything and never get anything new done. Plus we'd most likely end up with an unplayable game.

That is not to say we won't listen to anything people say. Take the civilian death penalty. It was obviously ill-received and clearly hampered the game experience for many people, so we did something about that. But this is a different issue altogether. The game is perfectly playable with armour working this way.

As for realism... We do try to keep it realistic, yes. But that doesn't mean we have to make a whole simulator for everything. It's a game. It abstracts from reality. There's a lot in real life that's not in the game. That will always be the case.

If you don't like it, make a mod that implements armour failure. Go ahead, the source is open.

[Sacrusha]

You are still developing the game, and you aren't even close to a beta or a pre-release. Why are the devs so neutral to the players' input, when alot of valuable comments are being made, some based on a strong background with similar games.

The problem I observed with this* is not that players' input is not valued - actually most suggestions will be at least considered. Based mostly on those suggestions, forum discussions, and sometimes even polls, design decisions are made.

But once design decisions are made, the same discussions will pop up again before the decisions which have been made are fully implemented. In that case it is usually more reasonable to stick with the decisions that have been made and fully implement/balance them first. After that is done it will be far easier for everyone to judge the design decision and provide feedback - what might lead to the change that had been proposed on the forum long ago, or show that the implemented version works far better than expected by some people, or lead to a completely different system being implemented.

Personally, I don't like the way armour currently works. I think it is unintuitive, and am of the opinion that it is implemented differently in most other games for a reason. But I'd like to see how it works when it is somewhat more balanced, so I can provide better feedback.

BTW, BTAxis, do you happen to have a link to a discussion that lead to the current implementation of armour? I'd like to read some more about the reasonings behind it, if possible.


*Long time ago I participated actively in the development of this project, but dropped out because of a lack of spare time. In the meantime changes may have occured that make some of my statements outdated.

[BTAxis]

BTW, BTAxis, do you happen to have a link to a discussion that lead to the current implementation of armour? I'd like to read some more about the reasonings behind it, if possible.

The discussion you refer to happened on IRC. I've pastebinned it:
http://pastebin.com/maa72307

[Sacrusha]

Thanks a lot

[eleazar]

But once design decisions are made, the same discussions will pop up again before the decisions which have been made are fully implemented.

Over at "Battle for Wesnoth" we made an FPI list (Frequently Posted Ideas).  Basically it listed common ideas that people posted, which we had already decided against, with a brief explanation why.

While many users didn't read it, it's easier to point them there than explain something for the Nth time. It also had some effectiveness in channeling the forum populace into brainstorming in useful directions.

I'm not sure if this project has grown enough for that to be worth the work, but it's something to think about.

[alinour]

Those 2 points can be easily handled with Alinour proposition: 1 level of wound doesn't need to correspond to 1 HP.
You can increase 1 level of wound each time you lose for example 20 HP (this value may depend on soldier strengh, difficulty setting, ...) , and become unconscious if wound level become higher than 4 (for example).

Right, this is exactly what I had in mind. For unconsciusness I'm gonna evaluate it still

[burns77]

Sorry if this is a re-post, but I timed out last time I tried and can't find my original...

How about wound levels (say 1-5) and medikits use 1 use per injury level starting with level 2.  Multiple use of the kits cannot be used to
fully restore wounded soldiers.  One use per injury. So a soldier who sustains a level 3 wound can only be improved once, however, if the same soldier takes additional damage resulting in a level 4 wound, they can be stabilized, or if they took another level 3 wound it could be healed to reduce penalties, but the two wounds would stack for a further reduced TU count, morale, and accuracy. Rendering the soldier less effective than they were with only one wound.

Wounds:

Level 1:  Minor HP loss from damage, no wounding, no penalties - Doesn't need treatment.

Level 2: More HP loss, minor loss of movement (TUs or can make normal movement like crouched movement), no wounding damage, and
            minor morale loss. - Treatment can fix the TU penalty and boost morale.

Level 3: Significant HP loss, minor wounding damage, major loss of movement, major loss of morale, and penalty to accuracy
           (more so with 2 handed weaponry). - Treatment would remove wounding damage, restore some movement (not all),
           improve morale and lessen the accuracy penalty.

Level 4: Major HP loss, significant wounding damage, unconsciousness. - Treatment would stabilize injured soldier, barring taking further
           damage, but unconsciousness would last until hospital treatment. 

Level 5: Critical HP loss, major wound damage, unconsciousness. - Treatment would use up the medikit, and only have a chance to fully
            stabilize an injured soldier.  Preferrably the field medic should have to stay near the injured soldier, but not sure how that would
            implement, so the % chance of losing the soldier even after treatment is an ok way to go.


-Burns77

[alinour]

Good ideas burns77...

I'll implement something alike, and then write rules description on forum... then I'll collect advices and modify accordingly. It's a pity, but I have so few time spare... my daughter is a very demanding kid... so don't expect update so soon (at least if someone doesn't want to do it before me...)

[burns77]

I hear you alinour, my daughter is that way too.

Also I just thought of this... might not be your area...is there a way to implement moving an unconscious soldier.... the originals allowed you to pick up fallen comrades and move them to safety.  That would be a nice implimentation with this if this is the road you want to go down.


-Burns77