Machine gun / Autocannon Discussion

[Sophisanmus]

Apparently physics is working hard on the aliens' behalf, most likely with its concussion-dispersing nanoweave armor, or something along those lines which prevents the souping of the alien.  Maybe try anti-vehicle rockets instead of anti-personnel/collateral warheads?  That could make for a good addition, a rocket that needs to score a direct hit, but does a hell of a lot more damage to the target.  Then again, it would be a bit out-of-place until environmental destruction can be managed, or at least some coding in place to allow it to pass through obstacles of minimal thickness...

[Nevasith]

aiming humanoid targets with rocket seems out of place- it just sounds wrong. Maybe some bigger calibre rifles with sabot rounds with solid core (or uranium based ammo armour piercing)

[Sophisanmus]

The rockets, keep in mind, are HE and IN, which are both feasible anti-infantry weapons.  One smashes by proximity, the other burns.  Neither needs a direct hit to be effective, nor is that the intended objective. 

[Nevasith]

yes, you are right of course, but you mentioned anti-vehicle rockets, that are mostly designed to breach an armour at thusly require a direct hit. HE and IN rockets does not however and here I totally agree with you. I wish IN rocked or grenade would leave semi persistent burning path effectively blocking a passage for a few turns

[sirg]

No, I wasn't reffering to one of those situations (a miss). There should be some type of attacks that are deadly to aliens, even if they're in the best armour. Otherwise the combat will be ridiculous.

In Fallout tactics you got a similar feeling in the later part of the game, when fighting robots. They were much much more resilient than any living creature, and needed heavy machineguns or new weapons to counter that. However, if you are dealing with robots, you can easely say that they have very strong alloys, thick armor, etc.. they are machines. But a living creature can't sustain powerful hits, even if protected by impenetrable armor, because its internal organs will be destroyed from the shock of the impact. It's like being hit by a train.

[Nevasith]

thats what I was saying. As such a weapon i see mostly a sniper rifle, rocket for 2x2 once they are implemented, and machine gun on short range, as i cant imagine even an ortonok in heavy armour would survive many full metal jacket bullets from a short distance.

[Sophisanmus]

A smack to the face with an HE rocket should kill an unarmored alien footman outright, light alien armor shouldn't fare much better.  Once you get into the medium and heavy grades, even a direct HE should have enough force dispersed or otherwise managed to allow survival in most cases.  This is why the aliens are so feared; their heavy infantry can shrug off even the nastiest anti-personnel weapons and keep on coming.  Concentrated fire and/or anti-vehicle weapons should be needed, and letting the player be aware of this adds a little to the ambiance of desperation.

AT rocket on a light alien would be a little overkill, but against heavier enemies, especially once alien 2x2s appear in later releases, it would become more appreciated.  Also, should environmental destruction finally make a stand, putting a tunnel through a house to impale the alien on the other side might not be so bad...

The IN effect is something I would love to see implemented as well, especially after the awesomeness that was X-COM Apocalypse's fire.  Some maps in that game could be burned out almost completely.  Mind you, I don't expect UFO:AI to be quite so flammable, but some area-denial would be nice. 

[sirg]

A smack to the face with an HE rocket should kill an unarmored alien footman outright, light alien armor shouldn't fare much better.  Once you get into the medium and heavy grades, even a direct HE should have enough force dispersed or otherwise managed to allow survival in most cases.  This is why the aliens are so feared; their heavy infantry can shrug off even the nastiest anti-personnel weapons and keep on coming.  Concentrated fire and/or anti-vehicle weapons should be needed, and letting the player be aware of this adds a little to the ambiance of desperation.

Even if your armor takes the blast, the shock is so great that your body suffers internal trauma. The kinetic energy has to go somewhere, right? You forgot about the shock of the impact.

[DanielOR]

Sirg, I am with you on that.  Conservation of energy and momentum is an equal opportunity pain...  I imagine, a well-armored alien, when hit by a rocket, should be thrown around same a sack of same size and weight would.  In the process, it will be subject to such things as collision with shrapnel (stopped by armor) and rapid acceleration - which would cause a concussion in presence of brain and skull.  I suppose the super-fancy armor can have anti-concussion gear...And Ortnocs may have no brain at all, just solid bone skulls...  But, at the very least, they should get tossed about by the explosion.

Far as implementing that...Can it be possible that aliens (and humans) get tossed by explosions?  I.e. moved a square or two?  Be neat to throw them off roofs or into the back of the room, at least.

[sirg]

You can't have an alien without a brain, that's ridiculous. OK, they might be dumb, but that doesn't mean they don't need a brain for basic functions such eating, moving, performing tasks, etc... The brain might be smaller, but it can't live without one.

You should explain better the effects of an impact with a high velocity projectile, stopped by armor on it's wearer.

[Doctor J]

The rockets, keep in mind, are HE and IN, which are both feasible anti-infantry weapons.  One smashes by proximity, the other burns.  Neither needs a direct hit to be effective, nor is that the intended objective. 

Except that in this game an Incendiary rocket is a poor substitute for the HE.  I have repeatedly seen unarmored Ortnoks take a direct hit with the IC rockets and grenades and laugh about it.  I guess the flame from these rounds is decidedly weaker than that from the Flamethrower.

[Sophisanmus]

Well, the idea I keep pushing is that heavier alien armors DO have super-fancy anti-concussion gear capable of dispersing much of that energy, or at least keeping it mostly within the armor while not affecting the wearer.  Now, it does make sense that the alien could be thrown a distance, though not nearly as far or as fast as a human.  Still, the trauma of the blast would be greatly diminished, and the medium/heavy alien could keep on fighting, at least for awhile.  

Flame rounds need area-denial effect.  Otherwise they are generally inferior.

[Doctor J]

Be neat to throw them off roofs or into the back of the room, at least.

Since there is no damage from falling, this would only be minor annoyance to them.  Actually, you might help them to move to a less visible position...

[sirg]

Well, the idea I keep pushing is that heavier alien armors DO have super-fancy anti-concussion gear capable of dispersing much of that energy, or at least keeping it mostly within the armor while not affecting the wearer.  Now, it does make sense that the alien could be thrown a distance, though not nearly as far or as fast as a human.  Still, the trauma of the blast would be greatly diminished, and the medium/heavy alien could keep on fighting, at least for awhile.

Sounds like an arcade game to me

[Sophisanmus]

So durable enemies  that take teamwork to dispatch are arcade-y.  And running around blowing everyone else up with a rocket launcher isn't.