Managing Mundane vs. Cutting Edge Gear and Equipment

[eleazar]

Ok, my personal preference is for a minimum of micromanagement, but i think i have an idea which should be relatively easy to implement, simplify the beginning of the game for newcomers, and most importantly minimize the part of the game that (i expect) few people enjoy.


It's easy to understand having a limited supply of high tech weaponry which your tech guys just invented a few days ago.  When you've just invented the plasma rifle (for instance), it's easy to care about how many you have, and it's not too burdensome to route it to make sure the right people have it.

However the same can't be said of the mundane items you start the game with-- combat knives, gunpowder weapons and ammo, etc.  It's also harder to understand why there is a severely limited amount of this stuff.  For me, at least, it seems burdensome to have to make sure all my bases have enough of this basic stuff, which any decent military base should have crate-loads of sitting around.

Why not simply eliminate the non-researched gear & equipment from the Production, Buy/Sell, and Transfer screens? 
This mundane gear could be available when equipping soldiers on an unlimited basis.  Which is essentially how it would be in an actual, efficient military base, but more importantly it saves more time for the fun parts of the game.

[SpaceWombat]

Absolutely right.
There is no good reason for a global economy to run short on knifes or assault rifles.
The price for standard ammunition seems also to be merely irrelevant to me. Maybe a "symbolic 1 credit" would do it for a mag of 7.62mm NATO bullets (or whatever lead balls they ever use there).

Another point is the instant buy/sell option. I think this way you can have some kind of express transfer if you have enough money (selling in one base, buying in the next).

[Winter]

I'd be open to changing the ordinary human weapons to have unlimited stocks for sale (and eliminate them from production) but they would still cost money. High-tech weapons -- even for infantry -- have a price tag attached.

Regards,
Winter

[Surrealistik]

Completely agree with the idea of unlimited stock for conventional weaponry. A restricted supply is just silly. Random price variations (mostly upward) within a limited range every couple of months might make for an interesting touch (crude simulation of changing supply/demand/market conditions).

[SpaceWombat]

Well I agree that the guns should cost money (but of course related to bolter rifle and laser guns a comparatively small amount since they are in mass production). The aggregated demand of standard weapons should merely decrease and therefore the price also because the world does now have a common enemy. It might increase a bit because of the alien threat (uncle Bob wants a gun, too).

I disgree with "mostly upwards" because the standard weapons will become technologically out-dated (by yourself) during game which will make them less liked since there are advanced alternatives on the market.

What if PHALANX would have a contract for standard weapons delivery at a fix price? This would reduce some kind of luck factor (ok, it would be a small one).
I think inflation simulation or something like this is too complex and too much effort for too little effect.
Standard weapons are your beginning equipment and your last resort if running out of resources. It should not be a gamble in my opinion.

[Winter]

Actually, gradually upping the price of conventional items (and perhaps produced items as well, to a lesser extent) within reason and due to a decent in-character cause (reduced supply because of larger world demand) might make finances more interesting in the mid-to-late game, as the player will have a lot more money at his disposal. He ought to be moving away from most conventional weapons, but some are viable throughout the game (grenade launcher for example), and allowing their prices to remain stable in the face of ever-more-expensive alien weapons doesn't seem like a brilliant idea from a gameplay standpoint.

I think increasing costs would add an element of complexity, and might even be an avenue of long-term investment for the player, where you can buy loads of weapons and sell them later at a small profit.

Regards,
Winter

[SpaceWombat]

This is of course a matter of balancing.
In late game standard weapons are no way first choice (better plasma ammo for grenade launcher will be more expensive as I guess?). On the other hand I do not feel like having money left to store extra amounts of -at this stage of the game- expansive (in relation to my income) standard guns at a early stage of my campaign. 

If you feel it is more balanced this way, ok. But I would not like to see a stock market simulation. Just keep it simple and if possible long-term predictable at least for choices I as a player can influence like budget decisions.

My view: If the prices of new/alien weapons (in terms of money as well as production time) and their use in missions are well balanced there is no need to bring in another variable to adjust balancing. They will be first choice anyway and the usability of standard items will be inflated by introduction of new armour types and enemy weapons as well as difficulty anyway.

[eleazar]

But I would not like to see a stock market simulation...

Random fluctuations would, i think be bad.  But prices altering according to a relatively stable rate or according to how well PHALANX is protecting earth would be understandable.

But if we are trying to solve the problem of too much money in the mid-late game, IMHO the simplest thing to do would be to make it harder to keep the various super-nations happy.

[SpaceWombat]

Or to keep the high-end stuff expensive. I think the adjustment needs to be on various levels.
Market simulations seem to be to complicated to decide in my opinion. Why not let PHALANX grow slower with less funding at the beginning and sufficient funds to keep the pace in middle and late game? There must be a way without making it to complicated to understand and plan for a noob. 

Another idea: Make some things more expansive in late game. For example laboratory upgrades. If you want to keep up with fast research you need to invest.

There are many things possible. Why should we make the standard weapons more unattractive in comparison at a different time in the game anyway?

If at any means a steady inflation rate -without luck factor- could be a good compromise.

[sirg]

Hi everyone, hi Winter,

I'm back after more than a year, and I'm glad to see that this project is still alive. I've lost it for a while, but now I'm curious to see what's new.. there are loads of new posts and stuff 

Back to the topic Yes, I found the micromanagement annoying as well, and it's a misconception that people hate micromanagement, however, people get to hate it when it's silly, like this kind of low end weapons supply. As a commander, you shouldn't worry about ammo, and spend time buying bullets! I think that common issue weapons should be available by default, without any need to buy them, same for ammo. Probably you should have a magic button that pops up a pistol and magazines, and when you don't need them, you could just send them to scrap. OK, maybe they could cost very little.

What I loved in the previous UFO (XCOM) games was the micromanagement related with developing new weapons from alien technology, and the fact that I needed elerium to make things work. Buying ammo clips was boring though

[Surrealistik]

I don't see the complexity in minor monthly price variations as I've suggested. It's simply a flavourful change that caters to realism without adversely impacting gameplay, even those variations with an upside bias.

[SpaceWombat]

Well I'm not a weapons market expert. 
But I do have some experience in economics.
And standard products especially on b2b markets or so do not change their prices monthly for a great variety of reasons (so calles "menu cost" is one of them).
That's neither realistic nor do I see the gain of random price increase(/decrease). Just because something CAN be done does not mean it MUST be implemented.

If you do not want the player to get drowned in money just don't let him be.
As mentioned before there are tons of possibilities to change this. More money to start with and less money per month or a higher administrative overhead or a fix inflation rate or... whatever.

The "economy" in the game is an extremely simple model (not even that) of the real world economy. In simple economic models you do not even need an inflation rate. You can just say there is a so called "present value" which takes price varieties into account.

My point in summary is:
It is not going to be realistic at any means. There are no markets (it's a list of items, no variety of trade partners, no profit margin whatsoever...). There is no real gain of randomness but a loss in the ability to plan things in detail. It is not that important to focus on standard guns because you are not going to loose because you are going to run out of assault rifles or 7.62mm NATO ammo if we want to let it look a tiny little bit realistic.

Anyway I would say the price of standard weapons should be that low in comparison to plasma guns, UFO fighters and so on that it should not even matter in late game. And therefore we do not NEED any price variation. That's just needed if we fail to adjust prices in the first place and if we do so chances are we fail to adjust price settings correctly anyway. Randomness will just add a chance of "wrong" prices int he long run or it will be that small that it does not matter anyway.

Just look at prices today.
Standard assault rifle? $3000-5000 if you want a good one? Ammo prices - lol?
In comparison standard jet fighters in huge amounts? $20-60 mio?
So if you want realism - prices for standard guns are marginal in comparison to everything else used in the game. Taking this into account I would vote for "standard gear for free" 

I hope you enjoyed my overlong article once again.   

[sirg]

Common weapons will become obsolete quite fast by alien technology, so the old rifles will serve only as a backup solution or a quick one if you want to quickly equip a new squad.
So the price tags of these items is quite irrelevant (you won't trade them for long)

I think they should have a fixed price, and everything should have a fixed price, because this isn't an  XCOM tycoon game, or PHALANX clerk simulator. Buying and selling stuff should be very simple, and the focus should be put on production, because the workshop will be the main source for good gear, and not the black market. I find it unrealistic (and silly) that 10 workers need several days to make one rifle, with all the modern equipment at their disposal. I don't think that a laser rifle is handmade and painted by a professional artist. It's logical that the research process to take days even weeks, but the production should go faster. Sure 10 workers building a UFO from scraps would take quite some time, but building weapons and equipment should be faster.

[Surrealistik]

Well I'm not a weapons market expert. 
But I do have some experience in economics.
And standard products especially on b2b markets or so do not change their prices monthly for a great variety of reasons (so calles "menu cost" is one of them).
That's neither realistic nor do I see the gain of random price increase(/decrease). Just because something CAN be done does not mean it MUST be implemented.

I agree that monthy variation (initially opted for as months are major temporal intervals in UFO:AI) is a bit much in so far as we're gunning for some loose semblance of realism, but really, to add some degree of variation and inflation (bi-annual/annual perhaps) would make for a flavourful addition. Ultimately, what'd be the downside? A couple of minutes to add a short code snippet? Personally, I'm not looking to make it directly relevant to the gameplay (never was) so much as the overall experience and immersion without getting into micromanaging of contractors and other such burdensome complexities. It'd be a small enhancement in those respects, but a welcome one.

Further, the caustic tone of your response is entirely uncalled for.

[SpaceWombat]

I agree that monthy variation (initially opted for as months are major temporal intervals in UFO:AI) is a bit much in so far as we're gunning for some loose semblance of realism, but really, to add some degree of variation and inflation (bi-annual/annual perhaps) would make for a flavourful addition. Ultimately, what'd be the downside? A couple of minutes to add a short code snippet? Personally, I'm not looking to make it directly relevant to the gameplay (never was) so much as the overall experience and immersion without getting into micromanaging of contractors and other such burdensome complexities. It'd be a small enhancement in those respects, but a welcome one.

Further, the caustic tone of your response is entirely uncalled for.

Well, if you like it and it is not of big influence I cannot disagree. The randomness should nevertheless be carefully adjusted (i.e. very low if any) as I think you will agree.

I did not intend to let any of my posts sound harsh. Please take my apology if it did.