Managing Mundane vs. Cutting Edge Gear and Equipment

[nemchenk]

Yes, I like the leasing idea too.

I will be looking at the spreadsheet again, soon I'll try both reducing the spread a little, something like:
Tactical Items: <10,000, e.g. "hundreds"
Aircraft Items: <1,000,000, e.g. "thousands"
Bases: <10,000,000, e.g. "millions"

Bases should still be the most valuable stuff, IMHO, as it would change the gameplay too much otherwise. I think the answer for aircraft is: Financing!  "Yes, you too can fly away in this state-of-the-art Saracen for just 500,000 a month, 30% deposit, pending credit approval!"

[FrancoC]

Then some testimonial would be needed... someone to say "Yes I fly Phalanx too" or "I fly Phalanx business class" 

[eleazar]

Here's a couple ideas:

1) next-generation aircraft cannot be bough, but must be constructed by PHALANX, in a special air-craft construction facility

2) Alien and next-gen technology can be sold on the open market, but can't be bought back.  Thus instant sell/transportation isn't a problem

With these 2 steps the cost of various next-gen items would not be so apparent, and more emphasis is placed on production.  In some ways this will might make the game harder, but i also think it improves the atmosphere.  Being able to buy up the next-gen and alien gear sorta makes it seem like you aren't fighting a lone war against the alien menace.  If there are so many other scientists who can build this stuff, why can't you hire them?

I feel more sure about #1 than #2

[SpaceWombat]

I absolutely agree with #1.
About the second point I would say this is not that much of a problem. If alien tech is hard enough to reproduce and you cannot buy it back you will very likely keep it anyway for your own purposes.

That would definitely support the urge to use the stuff you conquer rather than selling it like a pirate organisation.
I myself would like to see a focus on production and stealing from the aliens more than buying everything I need in the supermarket.

[nemchenk]

Have a look at some of the build times in my spreadsheet, let me know what you think  They are for 1 single Engineer.

[Panthera Leo]

I know UFO: Alien Invasion != to any X-Com title, but if I can throw a idea out there from the X-Com series...

X-Com, being a outside contractor, not being a branch of any armed service derived 95% of their in come from the sale of alien artifacts. What they where funded was a pittance of their expenses. Both as part of the game play and story, your checkbook lived or died off the success of your missions and it's swag.

Granted you could build your own alien equipment and sell it, purely that it wasn't enough. The story pick up on that in the following X-Com titles as most of the alien swag got crated away to some dark corner when X-Com went under the first time, the artifacts sold by X-Com pop up from time to time in the lore or later tech based on it.

It still has the possibility of directly controlling things in AI. Not just in how happy people are with you. If you don't do many mission you don't have billion dollar check books to wounder if you should build your next base in Maui or the Bahamas. Where as if you've been a busy little para-military group you'll have a spike in income, as well as expenses.

[nemchenk]

So, I've had some more time and am looking at the numbers again.

The idea of basic equipment being free brings up for me two points:

1) If both both a Pistol and an SMG both cost 0c, how do we balance the two weapons? The same applies to other equipment -- in my current thinking both cost and availability are part of the balance, not just Battlescape stats.

2) Perhaps a better approach would be not to make that equipment free, but rather set up some sort of "monthly standing order" for items. So that, given enough cash and supplies, the base automatically orders some mundane items for the player. This would be a sort of mix of the "basic items are part of the monthly upkeep" and "cost and availability is part of the balance" ideas. Or even have it ordering enough ammo to replace the ammo used during the month?


What do you think?

nemchenk



PS. New version is up.

[burns77]

Basic weaponry could be free... if you are supported by every nation on the planet, military resources would be overly abundant.  Monthly allotments make no sense as these items would be readily available. More so than micro management concerns, could you really see the only force on the planet that is actively trying to fight the aliens running out of primary weaponry and fighting with pistols and knives due to budget shortage?  I think not.

What would keep someone from using sub-machine guns instead of pistols?  Well weight limits or movement restrictions might keep a player lightly loaded.  Why carry a pistol at all if ammo supply is plentiful, which it is, but it should be... an assault rifle at close range is just as effective at medium range...better actually since you now get a 95% chance to hit an alien on full auto... which is much more damaging than a pistol. 

You could make medium and longer weapons less effective within one or two squares... making a player carry a back-up weapon for close combat, but you are still left with the question of, "Why use a pistol, much less a knife, when a sub-machine gun will do even better"?  The flamethrower has a limit of 8 squares.... some weapons like the sniper rifle should be restricted like that...except they should be required to be 8 squares away to get full use of the weapon.

Cost might affect the first month, but after that you have enough money that weapon selection of the standard earthly varieties are unlimited.  you get paid a few million per month and can buy aircraft and buildings, so why would a

1) You could make a pistol cost less to unholster than a sub-machine gun. 
Technically speaking... pistol ammunition is usually of 
higher caliber than sub-machine gun ammo, although a sub-machine gun can be created that can use any pistol ammo, examples are the most commonly used sub-machine gun in use today is the H&K MP5, which uses a 9mm pistol round.  A .357 magnum has much more power per round fired, but loses out to the fact that a sub-machine gun can fire 30 rounds (H&K MP5 single magazine limit) in a fraction of a second.  The new sub-machine guns use a high velocity assault rifle round that uses less powder to fire the round than a conventional assault rifle would use... the result is a round that doesn't travel as far, but has the same armor rendering capabilities.

2) You could put in a weight limit system. 
Pistols with a full magazine weigh in anywhere from 4 to 9 pounds (ammunition limit, and construction materials, and of course size factor into this)  A sub machine gun weighs only about 12 to 15 pounds, and a 7 round shot gun coming in around 9 to 11 pounds.  Newer materials could lower these numbers drastically.  Ammunition is another matter... pistol magazines weigh a bout a pound per magazine, sub-machine gun magazines weigh more due to carrying 3x the ammunition, and shotgun rounds being very bulky.

3) There's still the argument of a one-handed weapon vs. two-handed weapons, although pistols are much more accurate fired with both
hands. 
Pistols can be fired one-handed with little loss of accuracy,  a sub-machine gun is almost impossible to fire accurately one-handedly due to its weight, full auto is difficult to keep on a target 15 yards away with both hands and the weapon shouldered, due to muzzle climb. 

4) You could make the sub-machine gun a primary weapon and limit soldiers to one primary weapon per soldier, thus making back-up weapons pistols and other smaller arms.


-Burns77

[SpaceWombat]

I don't feel like it is an obligation to make every weapon equally useful in its role.
A pistol is inferior to nearly every automatic gun. In nearly every situation. An assault rifle will always provide more firepower and accuracy. Why change that? Design and balancing of weapons should serve the game (playability, realism...) and not the gun itself.
The pistol has its role. If I equip my soldier with a rocket launcher I should have to consider weight. The semi auto pistol is useful here (and that should be reflected in the game mechanics, it should have an impact on mobility if I decide to give my soldier two "main weapons" and especially when one of them is already overweight).
If I can substitute the semi auto pistol by an automatic weapon I will do so as I will likely substitute the assault rifle with a laser rifle or bolter. They are superior.
The combat knife is a weapon of last resort as is the semi auto pistol. If you try to attack an overpowered enemy with a melee weapon you SHOULD die for this in most cases.

My two cents 

[Guildenstern]

  Hey folks, I thought I'd just weigh in on the issue by reminding everybody on perhaps why the equipment is limited in number for standard Earth stuff.  If you remember, PHALAX is supposed to be really top secret so the list of suppliers would be smaller to preserve this secrecy.  It is true that a global economy could likely outfit more troops than the game would be able to support easily, but that would likely leave an obvious paper trail for anybody to follow (I assume the future would still have investigative journalists).  So to preserve that critical secrecy, only a small number of weapons and ordinace could be diverted from normal channels.  This way your team looks just like any other of the thousands of private security forces that would have sprung up in the aftermaths of the attacks.
  Thus I think our solution to fixing equipment in general is to bring the production system back in line more with the spirit(or at least how I read it to be) of the game.  As it stands now, just getting weapons and ammo produced for basic loadout takes nearly all month for just a few items for even a fair number of techs.  These folks are supposed to be the best of the best, working in a lab with the most modern production lines avalible to man, yet they work like molassas.  With 10 techs in the lab, you've got 840 man hours in play each week (12 hour shift per day * 7 days * 10 men), so I'd think they'd be able to slap together most items you'd need in a hurry.
  So my overall take is this, standard weapons in short supply is more in line with the story, however the fact that your techs can't make things very fast is the reason why this is going from immersive to irritating.  If it is adjusted so that your techs can build a near full loadout of standard weapons for the team in ~ 1 week most of the irritation of the global market is gone.  This change will impact the gameplay as the game stands currently by invaliding the market from a buy perspective, but, as more side research lines are opened for useful gadgets the game choice becomes buy from market (gadgets) / production (no gadgets) assuming the the overall gameplay is adjusted so money becomes tighter (and and single workshop at that point in the game is it)
  There's my take,
  Hope it helps,
  Guildenstern

[shevegen]

PHALANX is supposed to be really top secret so the list of suppliers would be smaller to preserve this secrecy.

I agree too, at least about the organization and it being secret(secretive). Exposing too much info means that the aliens could
get the info as well... launch sabotage attacks etc.

But on the other side I also agree about stuff like the knife. It makes no real sense to have a shortage on knife (okok
a knife right now is basically useless but you get the idea)

If anything, then I think weapons should rather get (much) more expensive than hitting a supply cap too early.
On black market if you have enough money you'd normally get the stuff you want to buy, and it doesnt matter
much for what purpose

That being said though, I think the supply cap is only a problem in the beginning of the game. Lateron in the game
you normally have a lot more cash available too.

Also, i think we could need more equipment or flying stuff. Right now, especially the flying stuff, and their weapons,
is kinda limited.

[Sophisanmus]

Please bear in mind that I have only read about 1/5 of this thread, consisting of the beginning and end portions, so if I ramble about something covered in the middle, I apologize beforehand.

I love the thinking around the secrecy of the PHALANX project.  The manufacturing of conventional arms is an issue which greatly irked me while playing.  The issue with secrecy and equipment availability seems to me less of an issue for the organization as a whole, however, and more of a regional matter, to be handled on a regional basis.  I do notice that many of the conventional arms are associated with a specific region, if not a specific country, and it would stand to reason that bases in those areas would have more supply available for purchase.  For example, the SMG is Chinese, correct?  Then Asian bases would likely have more available, while South American bases would had more trouble acquiring them.

Another matter would be transportation.  As it is now, purchased arms appear in base instantly.  While this works for the sake of expedience, I do hope it will be changed down the road.  I remember X-COM Apocalypse addressed this, but delivery times in that game were capped at 5 minutes.  On a global scale, I would assume deliveries could take hours, depending on location. 

With regards to the impact of the deliveries themselves, shipping visibility could be turned into a game mechanic.  Whenever a player makes a purchase, the armaments need to be transported to base.  Once the presence of PHALANX becomes known to the Aliens, they would obviously start looking for bases, and detecting/following supply vehicles could be one such method (as well as whatever, if any, espionage methods the Aliens may pursue). However, as shevegen pointed out, the media would likely pose a bigger detection risk than direct Alien surveillance.  Thus rare, single shipments would entail relatively little risk, as I can't see the equipment for one relatively small force taking more than one or two trucks, plus protection (against human raiders, not Aliens).  Repeated shipments, especially close together, would have a larger footprint.  Also, there are the aircraft part shipments to consider, as they either fly in or are driven in, both of which have a larger footprint.

I have to run now.  I was going to inflict more text upon you lot, but my time is exhausted for now...

[Doctor J]

I don't think there should be any more difficulty to supply standard issue weapons and ammo than there would be to supply fuel for the craft, i.e., none.    Arms dealers are going to be selling trainloads of gear to every police department and security company around.  In that environment, the small needs of a few squads of PHALANX troops are just a drop in the bucket.  Since having to purchase gas for the interceptors is currently considered micromanagement, i believe the same should be true for combat gear that can be bought "off the shelf".  As we discussed above, the cost of standard weapons and armor is only a tiny fraction of aircraft costs.  So why should we have to finagle the pennies when we don't even look at the dollars?

[tp1024]

Hi, I had a look at the game a year or so ago - and I'm impressed with your progress.

Concerning the discussion:

Some highlights of the storyline: there were massive clashes with aliens in Mumbai, several cities (among them the metropolis of Bonn  ) were flattened. If you thought 9/11 was bad, this, is worse.

Phalanx may be the most capable and most important part of the resistance, but not alone. The obviously rather dormant weapons industry will come alive in a flash, but it will take time to develop new equipment. Now, new custom-made equipment is EXPENSIVE equipment and this should solve the problem. Semiregular infusions of new technology in the standard fare of weapons would provide a steady stream expensive new gadgets that you are going to be waiting for.  You should get new weapons for old ammo and new ammo for old weapons, while gradually phasing out the old, cheap stuff to avoid clutter in the menus (and keep the prices up). I think it would also make sense to leave the research of strictly human technology to the rest of the world - stuff like railguns, laser weapons, better armor, better ammo (based on "old" hightech or even alien tech after it is known for a year or two) would just be announced and be available a month later or so (with a hint in the description as to what is next  ). Yes - you'd just buy your laser guns, for a HIGH price. Same goes for SOME new aircraft, while others would have to be built. (If you remember X-Com: Apocalypse - you couldn't just buy the Lineage Plasma Cannon, the Hawk fighter or the Small Rocket launcher right from the start, but they'd be available later on. On the other hand you couldn't buy your anti alien guns and x-com aircraft like the retailiator and annihilator) Lots of artwork, I know.

If you do this, you should also make sure that Phalanx starts on a low budget and that the first weapons are impressively inefficient against aliens (they just wiped out a conventional army - if you remember Mumbai) - the aliens would come in ones and twos to start with (the first 3-5 missions). At first, human equipment should be a FAR CRY from adequate against aliens. You'll want to have soldiers fire several salvos at aliens to make a scratch. Later, the number of aliens should increase with the new, more efficient and MUCH MORE expensive gadgets. This should go a long way towards making the game more dynamic and avoid that point when your equipment is perfect and you are just doing one mission after the next to finish the game. (The game should end just before that point.)

This would leave Phalanx to concentrate on understanding aliens and their technology (the lack of experts in the field explaining the shortage of scientists). And it wouldn't feel like you and a handful of people were out alone to safe the world. (And please, let those new weapons have a firm grounding in human technology. Where are those light high range antimatter grenades for the grenade launcher? Or plasma warheads (better vs. alien armour) for your rocket launcher? Or ultra light alien alloy launchers that can also use conventional rockets?)

[Panthera Leo]

If the world is at war, I don't see two or maybe three crates of SMGs (hold 50-100 each) going missing as anything more than a oddity then a clerical error, quickly fixed by someone with a few stars showing up and saying "Uncle Sam says you did get those crates, isn't that right."

Also considering if we are at War any reporter trying to actively expose a Top Secret project during war time could rightfully be charged with treason, and...I'm sorry, who was I talking about? That's just the nicer version for US consumption. Other contraries don't even always maintain that pretense.

Having enough conventional arms to pull a Matrix type fight scene where you fire half a clip, discard that weapon, and pull out another, wile wasteful, doesn't seem far fetched. It could also be nice to get the weapons a little sooner then we do, and turn around and upgrade them under the geese of "working out the bugs" would be nice.