General > Discussion

Civilians... those little buggers.

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BTAxis:
Nobody really understands the AI, I think. If there's someone who can make a better one, by all means.

Mustang:

--- Quote from: BTAxis on January 18, 2008, 07:43:12 pm ---Let's get one thing straight, though. Civilians should NOT be able to get themselves to safety, as seems to be what these comments seem to be trying to accomplish. Saving civilians is PHALANX' job, and it's not going to be possible for them to save all civilians on every mission almost per definition.

--- End quote ---

Sorry, but I completely disagree with this.  Civilians should at least be able to follow orders and get to secure ground.  I can understand the occasional hysterical civilian, but if this is the way you intend it, then let me jump on those idiots and cart their butts back to the drop ship.  As it is now, they will run from the areas I've secured and right into the enemy.  That doesn't make sense.  If I know my planet is going to be destroyed because 20-50 idiot civilians can't follow orders, I'm going to pop them in the arse and drag them to safety.  Since the AI does not support that, this limit just won't work.

SpaceWombat:
Right.
If it is indeed more or less based on luck whether you can save all or nearly all civilians the casualty maximum and the negative impact on funding, moral etc. must take this into account. Then civs are just an obstacle to deal with.
That would be no fun in my opinion.  :-\

Civilians are never save unless you finish the mission. There is no "hostage save zone" where they disappear when reached. But after you commenced your search & destroy mission there should be a much better chance for them to survive.
The 5 civs on the map do in no way represent all civilians attacked by the ufos. They are just who is left after the alien raid went on for a few hours when your troops finally arrive.
Protecting them with your soldiers lifes should be a gain and absolutely possible.
Aliens can attack them while they have successfully reached dropship/squad to seek shelter though! It does not affect your s&d mission objectives to have a herd of civs in one spot of the map.

I say let's make them a bit smarter and let them try to reach savety in form of a good hiding place or the player's squad. And we will see how that works and how it can be improved when it is implemented. I would say this is huge gain for the game while it is obviously also a huge task.  :)

Maybe I can find a way to contribute to that issue though i'm not a good coder right now.

BlakeD:
First, I think the civ-limit mechanism is definately in need of refinement / rethinking.

BUT (You know it was coming) - humans, especially panicced, untrained civilians, are STUPID animals.  They DO run into danger.  They do stuff that is illogical.  When the nice big soldiers appear, unless the civilian has seen and knows it's aliens attacking, may very well think it's a military attack.  If they do recognize the soldiers as the "good guys" - and the good guys with the big protective guns are moving in the direction opposite of the "safe place" they've just been instructed to go to, they may not go there.  After all, who is there to protect them?  What makes THAT place safe?

Humans are stupid, illogical, panicy, ANIMALS.  I'd like to give us more credit than that, but honestly, I don't think history would support it.

SpaceWombat:
While it is true that panic makes you run faster and think slower and humans are of course animals since they are neither plants nor funghi I think it is not true that our behaviour is unlogic or "stupid" while trying to get away from danger. If that would be the case no predator could predict and estimate what his prey will do next.
In fact the behaviour under stress and panic becomes mostly more simple but you do not put your second hand on a heat source while you realize the first one is melting on it!
And because humans are social/group animals -which is critical for our survival- they will stick to people of the same group (humans instead of aliens) and most of them will follow orders of someone who takes initiative on solving the problem.
That is reality according to my experience and knowledge.

That said I also want to mention that this behaviour does not necessarily mean it is the most tactical advanced decision to run straight to the soldiers! Maybe that brings you into the line of fire of the alien sniper on the roof and the optimal runaway strategy under given information might still lead into loss of civis in one concrete situation or another...
We are not talking about skynet super AI. We just want to simulate more common sense behaviour to make it more plausible as wells as provide a more tactical advanced gameplay.

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