Weapons Categories

[nemchenk]

I guess that depends on what we take as "base" real-world knowledge then Some people may not realise that firing a Pistol and throwing a Knife do not require the same set of actions, I guess.

By the way, I should have congratulated the dev team on an excellent game before wading in I've just stumbled on it in the last few days, and already my productivity at work is suffering! Good job!!

Now I need to look up how to help work on the game....


nemchenk

[SpaceWombat]

• Melee (including Punch and Kick if possible!)
• Thrown (Grenades, Knives, etc)
• Small arms (Pistols, including MP)
• Long arms (Rifles, SMGs)
• Heavy (Large weapons fired "from the hip" or from a prone/braced position)
• Indirect fire (Grenade Launcher in airburst mode)

I suppose the first two could be combined if we don't want too many skills. Also, I'm not entirely sure whether things like Flamers and Assault Shotguns should be Long Arms or Heavy... SpaceWombat, RFC?

Well how do you make a clear cut distinction between MP and submachinegun? I see borders are fluent here.
What I think is important for "realism" is not so much whether we put the gun x exactly into assault rifles while it could also fit into a category smg. Most guns in the "middle class" are handled equally by the soldier while the distinction is a technical one (max./effective range often defines the role).
Throwing of a grenade could also fit into your indirect fire category while throwing a knife seems different.
To make things less complicate I suggest a compromise - one additional pistol class. The rest should be done by reallocation of weapons to the appropriate category (throwing things could be calculated by accuracy and strength only?).
A flamethrower is technically extremely different from a projectile rifle (range, type of damage, chance to hit...) but in combat it is handled quite similar. Therefore I could live without a heavy category at all but I guess that would be a balancing problem (too many guns in the same category).

Conclusion: Pistol class is neede in my view while the rest can be improved inside the given system.

[nemchenk]

Hi SpaceWombat,

I had thought along the same lines -- while drafting my post, I added the "Heavy" category precisely because outherwise too many weapons would end up as "Long arms" Heh. Game balance vs realism strikes!

Indirect fire vs thrown grenades is another one where I was of two minds. I guess although the theory would be the same, the actual skill of throwing a Grenade is quite different from aiming and firing a Grenade Launcher (think muscle-memory.)

What do you think?

MP vs SMG -- while they might fire the same round, by putting them in different skills I was trying to say that an MP is fired like a pistol (stance, one-handed, etc) while an SMG is fired like a cut-down Assault Rifle. You have more experience on this than me -- what do you think?

Looking at your post of Jan 15, which I believe is your latest skills proposal, I wanted to ask:
What is in the Pistol category? Semi-auto one-handed firearms, it seems? MPs and SMGs are in the Close Quarters skill?
Should the Sniper Rifle be in the same skill as the Assault Rifle, as you first advocated?

Thanks,

nemchenk

[nemchenk]

Oh, and I definitely second taking Strength into the equation when working out melee attacks and thrown weapons. It just seems like such a completely different action to me than firing a weapon (gross vs fine motor skills.) Maybe something like STR+X when working out damage for Knives and other hand-to-hand attacks, where X depends on the deadliness of the weapon?


nemchenk

[eleazar]

Oh, and I definitely second taking Strength into the equation when working out melee attacks and thrown weapons.

Hmm, max range for thrown grenades would very reasonably increase with Strength.

[BTAxis]

Possibly, but then the range we have for grenades now should be the maximum attainable even with strength calculated into it. For longer ranges you are supposed to use the grenade launcher, and upping the range of that weapon would make it too powerful given the limited map size.

[SpaceWombat]

One might argue that no matter how far you can throw at maximum because of your strength precision declines strongly with range from a certain point. Taking into account game balance I do not see a necessity of altering max range for grenades with strength (though I do not strongly oppose it). If strength influences hit probability on a given range this would be ok for me from a balancing point of view.
My concerns are more about avoiding an additional skill for grenades because it is a universal weapon which every soldier might need/have use for. Therefore accuracy (and strength?) would be a good universal replacement.

According to a distinction between MP and smg I do not really observe a real difference. The H&K MP5 is often listed as a smg while its name is MP...
I fired an MP Uzi myself. It is quite accurate on 25+ m. While it is lightweight enough to handle with one hand and the recoil per single shot is very low compared to an assault rifle I would not use it this way if my life depends on it (gangsta style is not very effective  ).
I feel that smaller full automatic weapons should be considered pistols and smg/mps that match a certain weight should be considered assault rifles (or fit into a new smg category).

The shotgun used in the current version counts as an assault rifle if you dare to ask me. It has quite some range compared to a (9mm) pistol and is handled exactly like an assault rifle (I used it with close skill soldiers because there were not enough good assault skillers on my list at the beginning as a substitute).

If it is a trade-off for gameplay I would say cut the mp/smg category and keep the sniper category as it is. It is a fair compromise between realism and gameplay needs. The important thing is to get rid of the close skill as a "one fits all" box. 

Are there plans for more weapons later on? If we get a whole bunch of new weapons maybe I would come to another conclusion...

[ufogio]

I think the categories are ok the way they are now.
What is important is to keep smg, sniper, assault and the others two in different categories, so the player will have to train different kind of soldiers.
For example, one should not be able to switch a soldier that used a smg for 40 missions to a laser rifle or a bolter, without getting penalities.
It is just more fun for the player.... as for the melee combat category, I believe melee weapons are almost never used, with the exception of the stunning rod sometimes, so it doesn't seems a good idea to create a new skill for them.
Eventually, you can keep smg and melee weapons in the same category, and soldiers using the latter will evolve their Strength skill during missions, while the others increase Accuracy, so there will be a difference.

[nemchenk]

Well, I've been playing with the following setup, which I personally find works very well:
close = "Melee/Thrown": thrown grenades, melee weapons.
assault = "Small arms": One-handed weapons, including SMG (gives "assault" troopers an assault rifle-like weapon)
sniper = "Long arms": Assault rifles, Riot & Civvie shotguns, Sniper rifles, Bolters, etc
heavy = "Heavy / Suppression": all Full Auto modes, heavy weapons inc. Rocket Launcher
explosive = "Indirect fire": Grenade launcher, except Flechette ammo,

Just my opinion, of course.

nemchenk

[Woreczko]

I think the categories are ok the way they are now.
What is important is to keep smg, sniper, assault and the others two in different categories, so the player will have to train different kind of soldiers.

I too think that way. Skill with a weapon is more than just manual dexterity, it`s also about having proper knowledge on how to fight with it. While assault rifle is fired the same way as sniper rifle, you don`t use it in similar fashion. Assault soldier gotta have a keen eye and fast reflexes to quickly recognize situation and to take that shot before his opponent hides behind a corner. Sniper doesn`t need to be fast but needs to be extremely precise and smart about ballistics. Hence it`s reasonable that they are in deifferent categories. Take note, that assault rifle can be fired too in sniper mode, while snap shots from sniper rifle should require assault skill, as they are.... snap shots:)

[nemchenk]

Interesting idea, but in trunk and 2.2, all Sniper Rifle firemodes use "sniper", while all Assault Rifle firemodes use "assault". I was not sure whether you were suggesting they be changed, or that they were already mixed? As in:

Code: [Select]

Assault Rifle, Snap Shot -- assalt
Assault Rifle, Burst -- assalt
Assault Rifle, Aimed Shot -- sniper
Assault Rifle, Full Auto -- heavyor something like that?

[Woreczko]

I`ve modified my UFO files quite a bit, so I forgot how it was in vanilla 2.2. Anyway I made it so that all aimed firemodes (save for P-12 pistol) use sniper skill, that includes assaut rifle, bolter, laser rifle (added new firemodes), particle rifle and of course sniper rifle. No aimed firemode for plasma rifle, as it has a short range and no visible targeting add-ons.
So yes, it works just as you listed