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Author Topic: Critical Hits/Coup De Grace/Melee Damage Modifiers  (Read 11894 times)

Punkiee

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Re: Critical Hits/Coup De Grace/Melee Damage Modifiers
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2008, 03:09:38 pm »
As i have red more then once : being realistic or not isnt a good consideration (as if the rocket launcher is realistic modeled) for making decisions. You have to question the gameplay aspects and the gamers mental image of the gameworld. Of course the latter can be often taken for realism and that is where the mistakes can slip in. Keep this in mind please before you interpret other messages and blast at it, for the poster might have meant a different idea and you might have understood another idea. Take a step back before reacting, in particular for non native english speakers ...

Coup de grace again
Not for melee weapons?? Surrealistic, why? The main purpose i can see is for melee, for it is the place where stealth and being unspotted can be translated to a chance on higher damage from an attack (eg slit throat vs a quick jab if spotted).
For fireweapons, the damage multiplier should be much lower. An unaware enemy is more predictable thus you can in the same amount of TU's have a better aim at his weak spots, but the advantage you have here isnt up to par with the melee advantage.

As mentioned: in the absence of a body part system (distinction headshot, legshot), the criticals does fulfill that role partly. That being said: a body part system would be cooler.
Just like there is weapon variance, the critical system can be tweaked to keep the odd on a short leash. Thus as Surrealistic mentioned, if we tweak it, you dont have to fear that chance will run ramparant in the combat. But i still am not sure about the control you have over it, which is also to consider for it being random or not. The mechanics you suggest (weapon choice etc) are but second order effects for they serve to control very other tactical decisions and not to control the critical hits. I am looking for decisions you have to make that ONLY (or nearly only) affect criticals and nothing else.
The 100% chance for snipers makes me frown. For a x3 damage for critical hits and a 100% on criticals is the same as a no critical hit system with the base damage x3.

Offline OrderlyChaos

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Re: Critical Hits/Coup De Grace/Melee Damage Modifiers
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2008, 08:49:56 pm »
Hmm. I don't think Sur's saying that the feature isn't for melee weapons so much as that it's not meant to encourage use of them specifically.

Surrealistik

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Re: Critical Hits/Coup De Grace/Melee Damage Modifiers
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2008, 10:26:32 pm »
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As i have red more then once : being realistic or not isnt a good consideration (as if the rocket launcher is realistic modeled) for making decisions. You have to question the gameplay aspects and the gamers mental image of the gameworld. Of course the latter can be often taken for realism and that is where the mistakes can slip in. Keep this in mind please before you interpret other messages and blast at it, for the poster might have meant a different idea and you might have understood another idea. Take a step back before reacting, in particular for non native english speakers ...

Winter knows full and well what he's saying and what I intended to communicate, given that he's a brit, however, the point is taken all the same. While I agree that realism should almost never be a primary consideration (gameplay is most important) the fact remains that a lack thereof is definitely a negative, at least in so far as UFO:AI is concerned. Because this is so, it is important to demonstrate that the feature is reasonably consistant with reality and logic.

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Coup de grace again
Not for melee weapons?? Surrealistic, why? The main purpose i can see is for melee, for it is the place where stealth and being unspotted can be translated to a chance on higher damage from an attack (eg slit throat vs a quick jab if spotted).
For fireweapons, the damage multiplier should be much lower. An unaware enemy is more predictable thus you can in the same amount of TU's have a better aim at his weak spots, but the advantage you have here isnt up to par with the melee advantage.

I never said that the feature wouldn't work with melee weapons. You may have misinterpreted the statement that the feature was not meant to encourage their use. Also, melee weapons should benefit from the coup-de-grace no more than ranged weapons. The reason is because the difference an attack on an oblivious target makes in each case is uniform. With the gun, you get a free hit on your target's vitals. It is no different with a melee weapon. We are talking about pointblank range here, while your opponent is unaware. It's not that your opponent is merely more predictable, so much as that his weak spots are nigh unmissable.

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As mentioned: in the absence of a body part system (distinction headshot, legshot), the criticals does fulfill that role partly. That being said: a body part system would be cooler.
Just like there is weapon variance, the critical system can be tweaked to keep the odd on a short leash. Thus as Surrealistic mentioned, if we tweak it, you dont have to fear that chance will run ramparant in the combat. But i still am not sure about the control you have over it, which is also to consider for it being random or not. The mechanics you suggest (weapon choice etc) are but second order effects for they serve to control very other tactical decisions and not to control the critical hits. I am looking for decisions you have to make that ONLY (or nearly only) affect criticals and nothing else.
The 100% chance for snipers makes me frown. For a x3 damage for critical hits and a 100% on criticals is the same as a no critical hit system with the base damage x3.

A number of things. First of all, the near 100% base critical rate for the sniper rifle is specific only to the Headshot fire mode. Secondly, that probability is further modified by other dynamic factors, such as the type of alien, and the shooter's skills, so the effective average damage output overtime cannot be accurately modelled with a mere increase to the base damage. Thirdly, critical damage is 2x, not 3x.

That said, there is no realistic way to increase critical rates without signifigantly affecting other considerations. There is a necessary correlation, between slower, more TU inefficient aimed attacks, and increased critical probability. You cannot divorce one from the other, save with exceptions such as the coup-de-grace.

While I would love a body part specific aiming system ala Fallout, this would demand considerable effort to impliment, requiring a new interface and differing part descriptions and properties from species to species as the alien physiologies vary widely from one another, especially when it comes to the non-bipedal/humanoid and mechanical instances. This is probably not worth the work it'd require, when a critical hit system by comparison is simplistic to impliment, and abstracts hits to vitals with reasonable accuracy.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 01:42:29 am by Surrealistik »

Punkiee

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Re: Critical Hits/Coup De Grace/Melee Damage Modifiers
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2008, 01:16:13 pm »
I never said that the feature wouldn't work with melee weapons. You may have misinterpreted the statement that the feature was not meant to encourage their use. Also, melee weapons should benefit from the coup-de-grace no more than ranged weapons. The reason is because the difference an attack on an oblivious target makes in each case is uniform. With the gun, you get a free hit on your target's vitals. It is no different with a melee weapon. We are talking about pointblank range here, while your opponent is unaware. It's not that your opponent is merely more predictable, so much as that his weak spots are nigh unmissable.

Thus you want to restrict the coup the grace to only-when-you-are-right-near the enemy. I think it can be extended to any unaware opponent, but also taking account of the distance, thus rendering point black melee or gunfire identical, while distant melee doesnt exists.
It might be better to name it sneak damage for it does encourage/permit stealth gameplay.

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You cannot divorce one from the other,
You can, and imho you need to as i posed before. An example would be researching combat anatomy for aliens, which would increase the critical chance. Thus you make an explicit choice to affect critical chance and only critical chance. Computer assisted headgear might do the same, developing weapon variants also.

For critical hits to act as body part system you will need a reduced but not overly simple implementation. The headshot option is available but you will need to export that to every way the critical system works.

Surrealistik

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Re: Critical Hits/Coup De Grace/Melee Damage Modifiers
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2008, 06:48:57 pm »
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Thus you want to restrict the coup the grace to only-when-you-are-right-near the enemy. I think it can be extended to any unaware opponent, but also taking account of the distance, thus rendering point black melee or gunfire identical, while distant melee doesnt exists.
It might be better to name it sneak damage for it does encourage/permit stealth gameplay.

I've already specified that the coup-de-grace only applies to pointblank attacks in the original post. Coup de grace as a name is also functional in that is precisely what it is; a finishing blow/stroke, likely to result in instant death (the name I also find to be better aesthetically). Perhaps a smaller accuracy and critical probability bonus could be afforded versus unaware enemies that decays as distance increases, depending on the weapon (sniper rifles would be able to take advantage of unwary opponents at longer distances more so than an smg), to a minimum of normal levels, as that is sensible.

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You can, and imho you need to as i posed before. An example would be researching combat anatomy for aliens, which would increase the critical chance. Thus you make an explicit choice to affect critical chance and only critical chance. Computer assisted headgear might do the same, developing weapon variants also.

Sure, research the anatomy of a given alien and increase critical hit probability against it. However this results in a flat, uninteresting gain to critical probability that lacks tradeoffs, and anatomies need to be done anyways (unless you are proposing some sort of secondary anatomy which would be redundant). I'm not adverse to that however, because it does make sense.

Aim assistants would increase accuracy (one that increased critical hit probability exclusively would not make sense), which in turn would also increase critical hit probability. However, this does impact certain properties at the expense of others, night vision for example, or maybe a gas filtration device. The same is true of weapon variants (which are impractical unless we're talking about modular add ons). You can increase the accuracy of a weapon per say, but you can't directly affect its critical rate without impacting other considerations. No weapon features projectiles that home in on vital areas assuming they strike in the first place.

Personally I don't feel that it is necessary to divorce critical probability enhancers from other properties. It is a tactical consideration like any other, and one the player must take into account when deciding between multiple weapons and firemodes. The pro/con of aimed shots: high critical probability, higher accuracy, lower damage/tu efficiency. The pro/con of autofire/snap shots: low/lower critical probability, lower accuracy, higher damage/tu efficiency. Similar advantages and disadvantages apply to whole weapons on a more macro level to varying extents.

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For critical hits to act as body part system you will need a reduced but not overly simple implementation. The headshot option is available but you will need to export that to every way the critical system works.

But I'm not interested in adding a body part system for precisely the reason that it demands too much work for too little gain.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 07:11:36 pm by Surrealistik »

Offline Bonegnasher

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Re: Critical Hits/Coup De Grace/Melee Damage Modifiers
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2008, 06:30:11 pm »
I may have missed it somewhere in the thread here as I'm downloading 2.2, but isn't coup de grace the wrong name for what you're coding?  A coup de grace is and always has been a merciful blow to finish off / end the suffering of a wounded and usually incapacitated foe.  It is not a stealth move or sneak attack (unless you're talking about an alien not being aware of being shot because it is lying at your feet bleeding out or unconscious).  Standing behind an opponent and shooting them or melee-ing from behind is not a coup de grace.

Ildamos

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Re: Critical Hits/Coup De Grace/Melee Damage Modifiers
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2008, 06:35:27 pm »
It's not actually "mercy killing." It's a finishing blow.

DoomWarrior

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Re: Critical Hits/Coup De Grace/Melee Damage Modifiers
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2008, 11:20:29 pm »
It's not actually "mercy killing."

Sorry I had to laugh. I don't know if I missunderstood you, but "Coup de grace" is translated into eng. "beat of mercy" or ger. "Fangschuss". This term is normally used, if somebody kills a wounded animal.

edit: huh the board don't like accent Circumflex, replace it with an "a"
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 11:22:41 pm by DoomWarrior »

Offline Zukn

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Re: Critical Hits/Coup De Grace/Melee Damage Modifiers
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2008, 11:58:18 pm »
 The exact translation really isn't importantant is it? It is used in english to mean "death blow" but sound more stylish and less gory.The mechanics are the important part. It represents a targeted blow or shot delivered to a target unable to to defend themselves from it.

 Should it take more TU's and have availability with all weapons? May be. Does it need to be in mellee range?  10 ft behind a person with their back to you, with a hand gun is easier than 30 ft but is it easier than 5 ft and would a shot at 5 ft cause much more damage?
 

Ildamos

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Re: Critical Hits/Coup De Grace/Melee Damage Modifiers
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2008, 02:24:51 am »
I stand corrected.

This from Dictionary.com:

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1.   a death blow, esp. one delivered mercifully to end suffering. 2.   any finishing or decisive stroke.

But yes, from what I have said and from both meanings it's a death blow. I just didn't know that it's ALSO mercy killing. It's typically used to mean "finishing blow" in films and novels though. Sorry about that.

But I do agree with this:

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Standing behind an opponent and shooting them or melee-ing from behind is not a coup de grace.

Anyway, on to more important things with your coup de grace implementation suggestions.

Good day all.


Surrealistik

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Re: Critical Hits/Coup De Grace/Melee Damage Modifiers
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2008, 05:07:15 am »
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The exact translation really isn't importantant is it? It is used in english to mean "death blow" but sound more stylish and less gory.The mechanics are the important part. It represents a targeted blow or shot delivered to a target unable to to defend themselves from it.


Precisely.

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Should it take more TU's and have availability with all weapons? May be. Does it need to be in mellee range?  10 ft behind a person with their back to you, with a hand gun is easier than 30 ft but is it easier than 5 ft and would a shot at 5 ft cause much more damage?

As stated in an earlier post, I am definitely giving consideration to alloting critical probability/accuracy bonuses for ranged attacks on oblivious targets, with the bonuses being inversely proportional to distance.

DoomWarrior

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Re: Critical Hits/Coup De Grace/Melee Damage Modifiers
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2008, 09:58:27 am »
Sorry about that.

no problem :-) . Yeah I think it was quit clear in which context the phrase is used here. But I only want to supply the raw translation.