General > Discussion

Critical Hits/Coup De Grace/Melee Damage Modifiers

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Surrealistik:

--- Quote ---I've already asserted on IRC that I don't care for the idea of the coup de grace attack. As for criticals, I'm starting to think we should just leave them out, too. The damage variation is already in place, which means you can already get lucky and score a more damaging hit, especially against heavier armours. The effect isn't as pronounced, but the idea is the same, and as Punkiee said, we can tweak it easily enough. I believe adding more random modifiers is going to make the game worse. The more randomness there is, the less influence the player has over the flow of the game.
--- End quote ---

Actually the idea differs dramatically. The reason why is that the odds of realizing a critical are dynamic, and subject to a considerable degree of player control. Additional positive variance that has the sum effect of increasing average damage is not, and the influence a player wields over it is inferior. Further, although criticals do admittedly increase randomness, the dynamic has often proven entertaining and popular, even in games that are mostly skill based (e.g. TF2, countless RPGs, etc...). It also adds an additional degree of realism, introducing the dynamic in such a way that it faithfully mimics and abstracts (within reason) the concept of damage to especially vital areas. Current variance does not do this appropriately. It does not take certain important factors into consideration such as firing modes, accuracy, weapon skills, and the target's physiology (something I plan to enhance my system with), which should have a profound influence on one's ability to deliver an especially damaging shot. Further, existing variance also is applied pre-armour, as opposed to post armour. This is not particularily desirable. If a shot hits areas of greater importance, the damage it deals would first be subject to the dampening effects of any worn protection, and THEN would be modified. This is especially important given that armour now applies a flat reduction to all incoming damage. It makes no sense that a shot which would deal especial damage assuming the absence, or penetration of armour, but would in actuality do nothing in its presence is able to overwhelm such protection due to this variance ostensibly meant to simulate a range of impact outcomes that do more or less damage based upon where they strike the target. If this variance is meant to also simulate one striking weak/strong points in the armour, and thus superior/inferior penetration of a particular shot, then this should be illustrated with an additional set of variance applied to protection values.

That said, a critical hit system would overall constitute an improvement to the game. It's inclusion would render UFO:AI more realistic, and if past precedent is any indicator, more entertaining.

Winter:
For my 2 cents, I dislike the idea of critical hits intensely. They have no place anywhere outside pure fantasy -- they're certainly not remotely realistic -- and this is not D&D.

I think Surrealistik's coup-de-grace outline makes very little sense, as well. Blasting something with a rocket launcher from one square away should not give any special modifiers just because no one can see the shooter. Really, no firearm in the real world is going to do extra damage depending on outside circumstances.

Even more importantly, we don't need it. The entire X-COM series did just fine without these things. So did the Jagged Alliance series. I believe that fiddly combat mechanics would in fact have hampered them, made them feel more cartoony, which is what would happen to UFO:AI. There's no point to adding these things to our game except as a mod for people to whom it appeals.

Regards,
Winter

Surrealistik:

--- Quote ---For my 2 cents, I dislike the idea of critical hits intensely. They have no place anywhere outside pure fantasy -- they're certainly not remotely realistic -- and this is not D&D.

I think Surrealistik's coup-de-grace outline makes very little sense, as well. Blasting something with a rocket launcher from one square away should not give any special modifiers just because no one can see the shooter. Really, no firearm in the real world is going to do extra damage depending on outside circumstances.
--- End quote ---

Yes, because I fully intend to have rocket launchers inflict critical damage. As stated previously, differing weapons will have differing critical rates. Obviously weapons that have a 0% chance of a critical i.e. the rocket launcher as I've mentioned, will not be eligible for coup-de-grace benefits. Coup-de-grace benefits apply not 'just because no one can see the shooter'. They are an obvious abstraction (my apologies if this wasn't apparent) of the idea of an opportunistic attack on an oblivious target who is unable to properly defend himself. A turned back is the difference between a slit throat for example, and a struggle, or a bullet to the head versus a panicked firefight.

On that note, critical hits mimic the concept of impacts on vital areas that will prove especially injurous or debilitating than normal. Getting a bullet through the brain as an example is much more likely to result in serious, if not terminal injuries than one through the gut. The abstraction is obviously imperfect, but it is functional, especially give the number of factors I mean to include in the calculation of critical hit probability.


--- Quote ---Even more importantly, we don't need it. The entire X-COM series did just fine without these things. So did the Jagged Alliance series. I believe that fiddly combat mechanics would in fact have hampered them, made them feel more cartoony, which is what would happen to UFO:AI. There's no point to adding these things to our game except as a mod for people to whom it appeals.
--- End quote ---

X-Com also had damage variance that ranged from 1 to twice a weapon's listed damage value. That's infinitely worse than what I'm proposing. What's your point? Further, how precisely would a dynamic critical hit mechanic that took into account a number of logical factors make UFO:AI feel 'more cartoony'?

DoomWarrior:

--- Quote from: Winter on January 04, 2008, 11:54:01 pm ---So did the Jagged Alliance series.

--- End quote ---

uh you obviously never played ja2 in deep. Ja2 HAD something like Coup de Grace. Take Dimitri (for example) and use his throuhing knife + attack an enemy from behind without his notice of ANY enemy with the knife. The Enemy will die, with a chance +75% or at least do some heavy damage. Do the same thing, but attack the guy frontal or on an alerted enemy, you will just do 1-5 damage points. If you keep in mind that a person has a typical health from 35-75 this is just a scratch.
The same is also true for "normal" knifes (but the base damage is higher ~15 points) and maybe for the "dart-gun".

Winter:

--- Quote from: DoomWarrior on January 05, 2008, 01:11:27 pm ---uh you obviously never played ja2 in deep. Ja2 HAD something like Coup de Grace. Take Dimitri (for example) and use his throuhing knife + attack an enemy from behind without his notice of ANY enemy with the knife. The Enemy will die, with a chance +75% or at least do some heavy damage. Do the same thing, but attack the guy frontal or on an alerted enemy, you will just do 1-5 damage points. If you keep in mind that a person has a typical health from 35-75 this is just a scratch.
The same is also true for "normal" knifes (but the base damage is higher ~15 points) and maybe for the "dart-gun".

--- End quote ---

Not really applicable, because that feature (more sensibly) only works with knives, and its only purpose in JA2 is to make knives less totally useless compared to firearms.

Really, though, my comment about JA2 was about critical hits more than coup-de-grace.

Regards,
Winter

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