2.2 Release: Dead Civilians count?

[pip boy]

Okay, this civilian count is a terrible idea. 

Phylanx is supposedly the only organization fighting the aliens, but if we lose a few civies they will shut us down so... who?..  will takover? 

I've interpreted it as you getting the sack as the leader, not phylanx itself getting shut down, which seems sensible.

If its correct that only geoscape deaths count, you would have to consistantly ignore attacks to get to 40.

[SpaceWombat]

That would still be stupid considering the low amount of civilian deaths allowed. How would you measure a manager performance of that kind? How can there be an alternative if you were on the job for month and time is critical?

"We do not know anything about the aliens but if 40 civs get killed you lose your contract and we will get someone else for the position who can try again and lose only 39 civs while getting used to the job and gaining the experience you already have while the aliens have already completed their mission 60%!" 

Don't change the horses if you are half way there. 

[pip boy]

Yes, but if we assume only geoscape or failed mission deaths count, then you would have to basically fail half a dozen missions (and not bother re-trying them), or allow cities to be attacked.

Its more a case of shooting a lame horse.

[SpaceWombat]

Ok you might artificially create a situation that makes your "work" look like that of my government. 

Once negative impact on civilian losses (less money and recruits for example) is implemented you will either at least try to do something or not play that day due to a lack of motivation.

In this case why should we have a civilian death cap at all? At some point negative impact will be that high you cannot win anyway because of underfunding.

I would like to see a way to regain reputation by making a better job next time. That would eliminate huge proportions of the luck factor in missions.

Since I do not know how many missions on average are needed to complete the campaign I cannot make a final judgement on the maximal losses but I have a slight feeling 40 is quite low and will at least make my success highly luck dependant.

[tobbe]

My experiences:

1. Any dead civilian at geoscapes counts. Therefore it is important to engage geoscape missions within a few days (i normally wait a bit to avoid night fights)

2. Dead civilians in tactical missions only count if you lose the mission! As long a you finish the mission succesfully, it doesnt matter how many civilians you lost...

I might have correct my former post:

I am not quite sure if i ran into a bug... I just finished a mission, capturing my first alien and i got 2 todo messages and the game was over...

edit: it was about the captured alien, bug submitted in the tracker...

[EuchreJack]

I'm basically undecided on the issue of the civilian death count, but it's important to note that you can win a mission with all civilians dead.  Plus, considering civilian movements, civilian initial positioning, and the alien start positions, some missions start out with civilians dying on turns two and three, with little to nothing that the player can do.  Right now, I'm trying to use my soldiers as bodyguards for the civilians, trapping them into places where my soldiers can at least get reaction fire on the aliens.  Even thought soldiers are hard to come by, their losses don't automatically lead to game over.  Still, I'll have to see how this affects my game experience before I decided where I fall on this issue.

Also, I've always took it in this game and all the X-Com games that game over generally means the government abandoned the project, which eventually leads to alien victory.  Of course, I may not have enough experience with the game over screen.   

[SpaceWombat]

I have no clue how the random(?) civilian placement on the maps work but a smarter/more complex algorhythm on that would probably solve more problems more quickly than a smarter civi AI.
Since some civis are just running into alien fire I still believe the AI issue is critical if gaining money depends on it.

I am not quite sure if i ran into a bug... I just finished a mission, capturing my first alien and i got 2 todo messages and the game was over...

The game is not over it just kicks you to the main menu. Pressing continue lets you proceed. Just in case anyone new reads this and disappointedly leaves the game without saving.

[Styxarius]

Hi. My first post here. I've been a huge fan of all X-Com series and played aftermath and aftershock out of lack of alternative. Spotted UFO: AI a few years ago, didn't expect you guys to get where you are now. Since the main objective of this project is to do the remake of X-Com and stick close to its spirit, developer community has to implement the original score system (well maybe slightly modified) so that you'll get scores after every mission + negative impact of skipping or delaying missions. I was always wondering what did those terror missions represent: a small hostage crisis (area is being quarantined by local security services who are waiting on your organisation to show up as it's in your jurisdiction) or a full blown terrorist attack (aliens get out there and shoot everything in which case i doubt the local security forces would wait on you to show up in a day or so). At the moment it's a little unclear since you come to a mission area (a day late ) and see civs running around the area (obviously not kept as hostages) aliens shooting them as if they just landed (reminds me the intro movie from the first x-com) for a quick raid. So basically what I suggest here is to make missions a little more clear and make objectives and time deadlines more specific ( like aliens are raiding a city after 2 hours of battling local security forces they retreated to some area), army/police gives us 6 hrs to respond if we dont mission failed but we dont lose too many points since our base was quite far away and it wasnt possible to respond in time. Alternatevely aliens take VIP hostages at some conference we have a day to respond but lose a lot of points for every VIP hostage killed.
As for the loosing conditions we could be more dependant on financing so that if loose to much support we just wont be able to sustain + countries breaking off the contract with our organisation and demand that our bases are removed from their territory. 

[BTAxis]

Since the main objective of this project is to do the remake of X-Com and stick close to its spirit

Okay, once more. UFO:AI is not a remake of X-COM. Inspired, yes, but we do not necessarily try to stick as close to X-COM as we can.

[EuchreJack]

but we dont lose too many points since our base was quite far away and it wasnt possible to respond in time.

Sorry, but in all versions of X-Com, and in this game, nobody cares where the base is located.  If you don't respond to a mission, your supporters will be ticked.  As far as responding to terror missions is concerned, this game is quite similar to the original X-Com, except we have civilian death count instead of a score system.  Personally, I kind of prefer the score system, but I'm glad for the opportunity to try something new.  To be honest, all I ask of freeware is that it doesn't hurt my computer.   

[Styxarius]

Sorry, but in all versions of X-Com, and in this game, nobody cares where the base is located. 

All I'm saying is that there should be different deadlines for different kind missions and generally the more time we have to respond the tougher the penalties should be. It's just there has to be some rationale for choosing a night mission over day missions, since no stealth element exists here and aliens see so darn well in the dark - players have to be put on a deadline.

[DaCheetah]

While I haven't experienced any problems (or any real effect yet) of the Dead Civvie count; even though they seem to consistently run directly into alien fire, I have a proposal.

I won't make up a scientists name here to ask you for significant funding:

While the dead civilian count as of the moment is necessary to compel the player to respond to incidents (although ATM I'm F-ed because my Casablanca Base can't reach the damn Wellington mine), there should also be some sort of reward system for players who DO respond, and respond effectively to these incidents.  Something to encourage the use of that little "Replay" button at the after action report.  A bonus, an advantage, for taking very few casualties.  Since the mechanic is already counted in the game, Civilians Saved stat, perhaps the player should need to maintain a ratio of saved versus killed, say, every saved civilian counts as 1 or fewer civilians killed (or some funding equivalent).  I believe as of now the number of civilians saved boosts happiness, but otherwise see no other use for the stat.  Or, you could do something as simple as you can only let X number MORE civilians die than you have saved.  This way, even if your poor and can't build 6 bases, or your dropship can't reach wellington, you can still keep the game from ending by performing extraordinarily at the missions you CAN reach, until you can build those six bases and reach Wellington...

[SpaceWombat]

Another solution would be to let the dropship have enough fuel for a trip around the world by default. It is a special design for this task in my view. Or let the missions start anywhere around you instead of in a total random location.

Maybe the impact of civilian losses can be modified per map? I find it more difficult to save most/all civis on certain maps than on others. The convoy mission was really painful. There were only two civis rescuable by any means because I could not even see the rest on the long road and the hills around.

[Panthera Leo]

I can't say I'm not partial to the old system, it was more fluidic, and I don't really mind it. From a practical stand point of the story I can't fathom it. I'm charged with protecting billions of people, dubbed "the last hope", and someone wants to cry foul when some idiot does something stupid? I'm sorry the guy happened to die, I'd gladly prevented it I could, but I can't jump in fount of every bullet and still be around to stop the shooter.

Still it's not a bad system, it just needs polish.  It just needs a little polish like a lake has a little water.

Before you ask I'm more of a pragmatic guy then anything else, if someone wants to brake "The Law"₁ ,A.K.A Do something stupid, I: A. Enforce a punishment ranging from verbal to lethal! B. Let them reap what they have sown! Mercy is preferred, it is not mandate as a matter of operational procedure. (Love being the line between tyranny and good government.)

The only thing that gives pauses is I've had cause to question the intelligence of the civilians. More often then not they either freeze under fire, or instead of running to the people trying to save them "follow this nice glowy beam'o'death back to it's source so I can save the nice alien's from the mean men. (Fade to red)"

₁ "The Law" as C.S. Lewes put it in "Mere Christianity", A manual on the proper operation of the human machine. My observation, As a side note it just happens to carry over from the personal to the impersonal to be a solid foundation for government.

*ducks and covers from the ensuing flames*

[ceponatia]

These two statements are conflicting:

Which implies that civ deaths on the geoscape do count.

When you ignore a mission altogether it still counts as losing.