2.2 Release: Dead Civilians count?

[canahari]

Hi!

I like the idea, but there's a little problem with it. I ran into this yesterday. There are missions I can't attend to, because it's outside of the operational range of my craft (not enough fuel to go there and then back). If six or seven civilians die every second day, I reach the limit very quickly, even before I could build a new base with a hangar...
There should be some solution for transporting soldiers without the use of plans, it's irreal that all the planet supports me but I can't travel to othersides of the Earth...     


 

[SpaceWombat]

There are missions I can't attend to, because it's outside of the operational range of my craft (not enough fuel to go there and then back). If six or seven civilians die every second day, I reach the limit very quickly, even before I could build a new base with a hangar...
There should be some solution for transporting soldiers without the use of plans, it's irreal that all the planet supports me but I can't travel to othersides of the Earth...     

There is a solution for this. You can attach fuel pods to your dropship in the equip menu under "items". I was able to reach any mission so far with these and they are installed within 1 or 2 hours of game time.

[BigBonsai]

There is a solution for this. You can attach fuel pods to your dropship in the equip menu under "items". I was able to reach any mission so far with these and they are installed within 1 or 2 hours of game time.

Works in most cases. My last game, though, I couldn't reach Wellington from Europe, because it was simply too far away. Result: Lost game. Too many civ deaths.




BiB

[canahari]

Works in most cases. My last game, though, I couldn't reach Wellington from Europe, because it was simply too far away. Result: Lost game. Too many civ deaths.




BiB

Same here. I installed a fuel pod on my dropship on the very beginning; this wasn't enough.

[Winter]

Clearly the range of the dropship needs to be increased, it should be able to make it to any spot on the world if given a fuel pod or two.

Regards,
Winter

[canahari]

Clearly the range of the dropship needs to be increased, it should be able to make it to any spot on the world if given a fuel pod or two.

Regards,
Winter

This is okay.
But...
Is it impossible to make a way to travel without dropship? I have two reasons for this: the first is the fuel problem, the second is that the hunting ufos are too strong, and are unstoppable after the third month. It would be fine when I could travel with my team on the surface of the Earth ("civil" airplane or even car), across the supporting countries (a simple wayfinding algorithm), and in exchange there is the time loss (days). It would be possible to compute the travel time from the distance, remove the selected soldiers from the base's "pool", then when the travel time is over, fight the battle and then go back.

It's quite irreal that with all the earth behind my back, I simply cannot travel to a mission to save them for example when I have no dropship, 'cause an ufo shot it down. I guess in real life I would get help from other countries' armies or in the worst case travel in civil ways...

[SpaceWombat]

Well I think it is quiete surreal that a bunch of high tech soldiers wich a recommended as the world's only hope are buying a metro or bus ticket to travel to the ufo crash site or tramp to get there. 

A civil airplane would logically get shot down the same way my unarmed transporter is. Since it seems to be fun for these nerds to shoot down easy prey or they are aware of the soldiers and their mission.
And if that tactics work why not use a red cross painting civil "camouflage" on your own transporter? 


I say:
Let the dropship not get attacked at all at least for a while (stealth ability, speed, low priority target since (merely) unarmed and no threat. Whatever excuses you can find).
Then give the player an escort option for his fighters.

And last but not least I think the ufo density is a bit high. I sometimes see 2-3 harvesters on the same radar. I cannot imagine space traveling aliens are that inefficient in harvesting/scouting/whatever that they need that much air traffic.
 

[Ildamos]

These two statements are conflicting:

From Mattn:

the lost civs are only counted if you really lose a mission.

Implying that civ deaths on the geoscape are irrelevant. But then:

Works in most cases. My last game, though, I couldn't reach Wellington from Europe, because it was simply too far away. Result: Lost game. Too many civ deaths.

Which implies that civ deaths on the geoscape do count.

May someone please clarify? 

[canahari]

Well I think it is quiete surreal that a bunch of high tech soldiers wich a recommended as the world's only hope are buying a metro or bus ticket to travel to the ufo crash site or tramp to get there. 

When there's no other way, why not? Okay, maybe car or other countries' air force, instead of metro... but there should be something. And i didn't said it should be an ever-safe way, i just say it should be _repeatable_.

I say:
Let the dropship not get attacked at all at least for a while (stealth ability, speed, low priority target since (merely) unarmed and no threat. Whatever excuses you can find).
Then give the player an escort option for his fighters.

But I like this idea too.

[SpaceWombat]

I agree to the point that the dropship should have "unlimited fuel". It is designed to take you everywhere. It should be slower than the fighters to give you a punishment for only having one base to protect a huge region. Maybe there should be a limited radar or action radius so that you have to deal with missions near you only at the beginning and need to expand later.

You cannot use any other air vehicle because that would also be a victim. Aliens will not say "Oh it is Swiss Air. We don't shoot friendly non combatants!" 

And you cannot drive from north america to africa by car even if there would be a tunnel under the ocean it would take too long and this tunnel would be the thing I -as the evil alien that I am- would destroy first because of its strategic value.

[canahari]

And you cannot drive from north america to africa by car even if there would be a tunnel under the ocean it would take too long and this tunnel would be the thing I -as the evil alien that I am- would destroy first because of its strategic value.

Ship?
Okay... I feel you are right... I guess what bothers me is that I cannot buy an airplane, so I cannot try again and again when my dropship is shot down... ;( And I'd like a way what I _can_ try again

[Mustang]

Okay, this civilian count is a terrible idea. 

Phylanx is supposedly the only organization fighting the aliens, but if we lose a few civies they will shut us down so... who?..  will takover?  It doesn't make sense.  The aliens are attacking, and we are going to lose people and the only way to survive is to keep fighting them.  The score made sense in the original XCOM because if we're doing good in one country, then the other countries might get a bit ticked if we don't help them as well.  This is an artificial limit that just doesn't work.  Game over should be based on our no longer being able to sustain ourselves and being attacked by the Aliens, not just, "Oh well, we lost a few people.  The people of Earth accept our alien overlords and freely take the death they give us without a fight".

From a gameplay perspective, if Civies are going to cause me to lose the game, then there better be some decent AI behind them.  They better actively try to get to safety, and not run straight into the enemy and get blasted.  They should also be able to pick up a knife and try to fight or something.

I love what you guys have done with the game and greatly appreciate the whole effort, but this idea needs rethinking.  This kind of artificial limit is something that would stop me from recommending this to anyone else because new people just will not be able to adapt to that.  At the very least, this number should be in the hundreds and have some kind of decay on it as has been suggested.

[SpaceWombat]

I absolutely agree with Mustang's post.
There should be an impact of huge civilian losses or not responding to attacks but not an absolute cap.

If the UN or any other transnational body is involved though there is no need for logic at all. 
We've seen that suicide pacifism of "hey we lost three soldiers, lets give up" already in reality.
But I don't want to make this a political topic. It is not rational to confront an hostile alien army and recommend no more than 40 or 60 civilian losses. Even if these numbers symbolize 40.000 or 60.000 people. 

[DaNippers]

I second mustangs emotion.... civilian death count should count against Allied Support, not end game, unless most of the earth is depopulated....

[tobbe]

Implying that civ deaths on the geoscape are irrelevant. But then:

Which implies that civ deaths on the geoscape do count.

May someone please clarify? 

My experiences:

1. Any dead civilian at geoscapes counts. Therefore it is important to engage geoscape missions within a few days (i normally wait a bit to avoid night fights)

2. Dead civilians in tactical missions only count if you lose the mission! As long a you finish the mission succesfully, it doesnt matter how many civilians you lost...