General > Discussion
"New" Weapon stats (2.2 - 2.3)
Popi:
Hi there,
My 5 cents on how i see the re-balancing of weapons (in 2.2 - 2.3)
First of all... lasers have been kept back (again)
Laser Pistol ( 8TU - 30 Damage / 12TU - 50 Damage )
Laser Rifle ( 11TU - 40 Damage / 17TU - 60 Damage )
Heavy Laser ( 18TU - 60 Damage / 23TU - 100 Damage )
Compare with the steel bullets version
7.62 mm Pistol ( 6TU 40 Damage / 8TU - 111 Damage ) (Less TUs than laser and double damage!)
Assault Rifle ( 11TU - 111 Damage / 18TU - 296 Damage ) (Same TUs and... five times as much damage!)
Minigun ( 15TU - 100 Damage / 30TU - 500 Damage ) (1/3 more TUs and... five times as much damage!)
And armor value isnt too great to make up for the diference
So lasers are... way too weak
RPG and grenades... just by comparison... do too little damage... we have a minigun does 500 damage, smg 375, flamethrower 360, shotgun 220. How can it be a IC rocket just does 90 and HE 120?, maybe RPG should be much more expensive to fire and reload, having worst accuracy... but as they are now... if i would ever find a "tank" unit... last thing i will use against it is a rocket.
Other way to "fix" them in single is make them pretty expensive and/or bigger... and maybe remove them (or allow just 1) in MP.
But it does little sense that even the weakest unarmored soldier can take a grenade or a rocket, blow it in his face... and survive.
BTAxis:
Firstly, the balancing isn't finished. I need to do a lot of testing, plus I rely on reports like this one.
Secondly, lasers aren't supposed to be that effective. They're the next step up from the standard weaponry (not quite obsoleting the latter) that is the human's answer to plasma. PBW is just stronger than laser. That's a singleplayer consideration. How does this translate to multiplayer, you ask? Well, read the proposal for point-based MP.
Thirdly, the values you posted here are wrong. Here are the defs for the minigun and heavy laser:
--- Code: --- {
name "_Full-Auto"
skill heavy
projtl bullet
impact bulletImpact
hitbody null
firesnd weapons/chaingun
speed 0
spread "3 6"
crouch 1.0
range 60
shots 25
ammo 25
delaybetweenshots 20
time 30
damage "20 5"
dmgweight normal_spray
reaction true
}
--- End code ---
--- Code: --- firedef
{
name "_Long Wave"
skill close
projtl laserPulse
impact laserImpact
hitbody laserImpact
firesnd weapons/laser
speed 0
spread "0 0.8"
crouch 0.3
range 60
shots 1
ammo 3
time 12
damage "50 10"
dmgweight laser_light
reaction true
}
--- End code ---
That's 40-60 laser damage in 12 TUs, and 600-1000 damage minigun damage in 30 TUs (15-25 damage per shot).
fourthly, the TU/damage ratio isn't the whole story. If you look only at that, you end up with the wrong idea. Let me correct the twisted TU/damage view with the following:
In 12 TUs, the heavy laser does 40-60 damage. Let's suppose the soldier is wearing medium armour. The calculation becomes: 40 - 25 = 15 damage minumum, 60 - 25 = 35 damaghe maximum.
In 30 TUs, the minigun does 600-1000 damage, but in 40 shots. Let's assume for the sake of the argument that all 40 shots will hit - which they really won't - then the armor will reduce 12 damage - per shot! So the calculation becomes at minimum: (15 - 12) * 40 = 120 damage. At maximum: 520 damage.
The minigun does a lot of damage, but again, not NEARLY all of those shots are going to hit. And since the randomness factor applies to every bullet, you aren't going to do the maximum damage in a practical situation. It'll be more like the average damage, which would be 320.
Kaerius:
Honestly most weapons are not even upgrades on the basic ones, and weapons relying on putting out a lot of projectiles are weaker now that armour works.
Why would I ever use a laser rifle or heavy laser over a sniper rifle? The only reason I can think of is armour, if the aliens become very resistant to bullets later on for example, but laser went right through. I seem to remember it saying in an alien autopsy for one of them that laser would be ineffective against that race though...
Plasma weapons similarly aren't much of an upgrade, the spray modes do a lot of damage, but then each hit will be modified by armour. Why would I use a plasma rifle over say a machinegun(that will burst on reaction fire). The grenade and blade are nice though.
It's not until particle weapons you come to the upgrades, and even then, it's mostly because they go through armour like it wasn't there. Particle rifle is probably the best multiplayer weapon, kills someone with ~150 hp and power armour with one application of rapid shots every time(assuming you hit with 3 shots at least, out of 5 in the burst).
Personal pet peeve is weapons that rely on weight of fire to do any damage, that have a single fire snapshot, totally ruining their reaction fire potential(assault rifle, submachine gun, etc). Since snapshot was added to submachineguns, I haven't bothered with them. I wish reaction fire would at least use the burst option by default(on pretty much all weapons...)
Another thing that bugs me is the twohanded pistols/mini-mains(plasma pistol, smg, mini-shotgun). They'll never replace other twohanded weapons as main weapons, and they aren't useful as sidearms, because you can't just draw them in off-hand and fire.
BTAxis:
--- Quote from: Kaerius on October 15, 2007, 01:27:01 pm ---Why would I ever use a laser rifle or heavy laser over a sniper rifle? The only reason I can think of is armour, if the aliens become very resistant to bullets later on for example, but laser went right through. I seem to remember it saying in an alien autopsy for one of them that laser would be ineffective against that race though...
--- End quote ---
The sniper rifle is supposed to be accurate and deadly over long distances, but be TU ineffective. That's one reason why you'd want to use different weapons.
--- Quote ---Plasma weapons similarly aren't much of an upgrade, the spray modes do a lot of damage, but then each hit will be modified by armour. Why would I use a plasma rifle over say a machinegun(that will burst on reaction fire). The grenade and blade are nice though.
--- End quote ---
Plasma weapons shouldn't really be that much better than the human weaponry - after all, you get that stuff really early on. They should at least be a little better, though, so maybe some tweaks in that area are required.
--- Quote ---It's not until particle weapons you come to the upgrades, and even then, it's mostly because they go through armour like it wasn't there. Particle rifle is probably the best multiplayer weapon, kills someone with ~150 hp and power armour with one application of rapid shots every time(assuming you hit with 3 shots at least, out of 5 in the burst).
--- End quote ---
Not so. The PBW rifle does 55-85 damage per shot, 4 shots per burst. The power armour has protection 50 for that damage weight. If all 4 shots hit and you do maximum damage every time, you still only do 35 * 4 = 140 damage. Not enough to kill a 150HP soldier. Methinks you're not using the newest ufo definitions.
--- Quote ---Personal pet peeve is weapons that rely on weight of fire to do any damage, that have a single fire snapshot, totally ruining their reaction fire potential(assault rifle, submachine gun, etc). Since snapshot was added to submachineguns, I haven't bothered with them. I wish reaction fire would at least use the burst option by default(on pretty much all weapons...)
--- End quote ---
Too cheap. I am trying to move away from one-shot kills with this balancing. Reaction fire should be a system that gives you options and doesn't leave you sitting around without defence while the enemy makes his move. It should not be the main method of killing.
--- Quote ---Another thing that bugs me is the twohanded pistols/mini-mains(plasma pistol, smg, mini-shotgun). They'll never replace other twohanded weapons as main weapons, and they aren't useful as sidearms, because you can't just draw them in off-hand and fire.
--- End quote ---
This is a good point. How do you think these weapons can be modified so they're at least worth taking along?
HitMan:
Hi,
If I remember correctly in "UFO enemy unknown" every item had weight. The more you had equipment=weight to carry the slower=less time units you had. I have not noticed this in Ufoai or maybe only small effect that does not make a difference. With stronger weight to TU effect you really need to consider if you want fast soldiers with less fire power or slow soldiers with more fire power. The best would be a combination of course.
For example in "UFO enemy unknown" if you packed heavy weapon in backpack and heavy weapon at hand and rest of the slots full of ammo and grenades a rookie soldier did not have enough time units to shoot at all.
This could be one way to make two handed light weight weapons more important.
- HitMan
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