Secondary shot for Grenade Laucher

[Bandobras]

Do you have any nice idea for the secondary fire mode for Grenade Laucher? Currently there is none...

I tried an idea (a bit bland, I admit) --- two grenades are fired at once (as in Metal Storm), but with half the range --- and I failed.

The following script code is broken --- range lmitation does not work and the grenades are fired one after another instead of simultanously. Any ideas how to fix that (or, preferabley, encode even nicer secondary fire mode)?

Code: [Select]


secondary
{
name "_Double Shot"
skill explosive
projtl grenl_ammo
impact frag_explosion
hitbody frag_explosion
impsnd misc/big_boom.wav
bodysnd misc/big_boom.wav
bncsnd misc/klonk03.wav
gravity true
delay 1
bounce 10
bncfac 0.5
speed   0
spread "9 9"
range 2.0
shots 2
ammo 2
rof 0
time 14
spldmg "100 30"
splrad 120
dmgtype blast
}


[BTAxis]

Well, I know I'm thinking outside the scope of the possibilities that the game offers right now, but it sounds to me like a secondary fire mode would be a timed shot. I've already argued for normal grenades in the style of the original UFO, where you set a timer until the grenade goes off. You could do that for the grenade launcher as well.

[Bandobras]

For grenades that would be cool, though mines do even more than that, don't they?

However, I guess, in reality Grenade Launcher does not fire timed grenades and, anyway, doubling this feature with normal grenades is less fun.

[BTAxis]

Actually, I think in reality, grenade launchers ONLY fire timed grenades, only the time is a few seconds or so. Not sure though, maybe some grenades explode on impact. But the idea of a grenade launcher is that you can bounce the grenade around a corner before it goes off.

As for mines, the idea is that you can't really throw them the way you can throw grenades. Throwing anything except grenades isn't implemented, though, so this is just speculation on my part. I've petitioned for all equipment to be throwable, but so far it remains a feature request.

[Bandobras]

Yeah. Now I see I was wrong on both accounts. But still, if the mines are throwable and don't arm immediately, so that you can safely throw them, they are strictly better than timed grenades, aren't they? OTOH they may be too good. You can throw a ton of mines ahead of you and just wait for the aliens to come. It's much saner if you can only mine your rear positions or a door or stairs you have to come close to.

[BTAxis]

Well, the way I imagined it, you can't throw mines nearly as far as grenades. Maybe a max of three squares or so. Or maybe they'd break when you throw them, though I don't like that idea, since I usually throw equipment to get it to another soldier quickly. Also, you can carry less mines than grenades, and they slow you down a lot more.

[Bandobras]

Perhaps mines can be thrown as far as grenades (except those that are much heavier), but if they are armed they explode when thrown (and so work as grenades). So you have to drop armed mines or arm them on the ground if they are to work as mines. What do you think? And I think I like your idea about timed grenades.

Anyway, wouldn't it be more fun if the secondary fire mode of Grenade Launcher was not simply a repetition of the hand grenades secondary (or primary?) fire mode?

[BTAxis]

Well, maybe you could make a grenade launcher throw the grenades much farther than a soldier can throw a normal grenade. The basic effect of the weapon would still be the same, except range (and possibly explosive power) is larger, at the expense of having to carry around the launcher. I don't know. Maybe it wouldn't add to the game enough to be worth it, maybe it would.

I think the mines would work well that way. They'd have to be significantly more expensive than grenades, though, so players won't buy mines only and use them instead of grenades. Mines are NOT intended as thrown weapons.

[Bandobras]

Well, maybe you could make a grenade launcher throw the grenades much farther than a soldier can throw a normal grenade.

I guess this is not worth carrying the launcher, unless the range is huge and this breaks balance, because in UFO:AI range is usually the most important limiting factor of a weapon. Especially since you can carry lots of laucher grenades, as opposed to frag grenades (this is an important advantage of the laucher, BTW), so you could just blast a lot of the battlefield, above all obstacles, before aliens even have a chance to see you...

The basic effect of the weapon would still be the same,

Now I see that the specs of Grenade Laucher are exactly the same as of Frag Grenade, except the time needed to fetch grenade from the backpack and the quantity of ammo you can carry. This is obviously too weak pair of advantages and a very boring one...

except range (and possibly explosive power) is larger

Yes, a bit of additional range and damage would balance things, but this is still quite boring... But perhaps I miss something? Perhaps the throwing arc is different that the one of the laucher? How to make Grenade Laucher more interesting, before we start thinking on the secondary shot? Perhaps realism can tell us something? What distinguishes grenade laucher from from a hand grenade (wikipedia)? Yes, range, you are right. Anything else? I guess that at least a differrent trajectory would be nice. Or not?

[BTAxis]

Bouncing off walls. I'd really like that. It'd involve a rather major code change, though.

As for the rest, the grenade launcher would not only be an alternative for the grenades, but also for the rocket launcher. Unlike the rocket launcher, it can fire over obstables, and unlike the grenades, it fires heavy explosive shells. So maybe you should just think of it as a weapon that bridges the gap between the rocket launcher and grenades. Of course, whether we need anything to close the gap is another matter.

[Mattn]

Bouncing off walls. I'd really like that. It'd involve a rather major code change, though.

this is implemented. if you don't know how to define it - have a look at the granade definition. there is an example.

[BTAxis]

Well, what I was thinking of was a more involved bounce. For example, when using the grenade launcher, you could point at a square that isn't in the line of fire directly, but the game would try to find a "bounced" line of fire and if there was any, the grenade trajectory would be displayed, including the bounces. I haven't noticed anything like that with the grenades right now. You can throw them at a wall and they'll bounce back, but that's not what I had in mind.

[Mattn]

hm. i don't think, that this would be a nice feature - currently you have to approximate your bouncing angle - i think that this is much heavier and much more fun. i would be too easy to use the grenades or grenade launcher when they will calculate the angles for you.... imo.

but you are right - this is a feature that is not implemeted. though i would not be as hard.

[BTAxis]

The trouble is that you can't aim that precisely. If you're in a small corridor, you can only aim directly ahead, while if you would aim sligtly to the side, it would still be possible to bounce a grenade around the corner. But given the grid model, the smallesd deviation you can make is one square, which is a bit big in situations like that.

It could be offset if you could aim outside the line of fire, though, say beyond the wall. Then you could aim the grenade at the first bounce point more precisely.

[Bandobras]

Yeah. The Grenade Launcher has a targetting computer! A little hint of the targeting aids would have to be added to the picture, though.

Another thing, shoundn't hand grenades be larger than the Grenade Launcher ones (the latter have to fit into that tube and include the propellant (gas, explosive?))? But Grenade Launcher would have faster fire rate and a bit bigger range. OK?