Skills Proposal

[LordHavoc]

Here's my proposal for what skills do (a separate thread will be created for how they should advance):

Strength (renamed from Power):
Determines total health.  Reduces recoil effect on later shots in a burst, and having too little for a given weapon reduces accuracy on the initial shot in snap/auto mode, for aimed mode it adds a TU penalty instead (making them eligible for their true accuracy but taking longer to line up the shot), having too little may also penalize total TUs according to inventory weight (this would mainly penalize weak aliens I think as we can assume all soldiers are strong enough to carry a reasonable amount of equipment).  Strength penalties do not apply while prone (as the weapon is usually resting on the floor using a bipod), however they could apply a +1 TU cost for movement while prone with an overweight weapon.  Also determines throwing distance for grenades/knives/etc.

Speed:
Determines total number of TUs, affects chance to dodge enemy shots before they are fired (if the soldier is at least half the speed of the alien there is some chance to dodge, and an even higher chance to dodge for slow projectiles such as rockets based on distance, the dodge might in reality be simultaneous with the firing but will be portrayed as a sidestep before the shot is fired), a dodge is simply a roll to the side or a sidestep (simply moving to a neighboring grid cell if one is accessible and not in the path of the shot, this would cost some TUs on the part of the dodger), dodging means that rockets/grenades/etc fired/thrown from long range will almost always be dodged, so they should be fired/thrown at the floor or wall, not directly at a target with the expectation of hitting it unless it is very slow.  Dodging might not be possible if aliens are next to the soldier (melee situation).

Accuracy:
Determines base accuracy of initial shot from a weapon (certain weapon/skill combinations have additional modifiers such as Power penalty for weapons that are too heavy for this character, or aimed accuracy bonus for long range sniper weapons), later shots are affected by recoil and consequently accuracy matters a lot less in burst mode (where Power matters), improves chance of causing fatal wounds (critical hits) in aimed mode (which would cause bleeding on successive turns, if we decide to have fatal wounds), also determines throwing accuracy.

Mind:
Affects probability of successfully Panicing, Mind Controlling, or Detecting lifeforms (the 3 possible actions for a Mind Probe weapon), affects probability of successfully resisting the aforementioned actions as well (including Detection, a very strong Mind skill might allow a soldier to go undetected by Mind-oriented aliens, this is of course subject to discussion).

Close Combat:
Affects TU cost of firing/reloading/using close combat weapons (pistol, SMG, tazer pistol, stun rod, knives and other blades) or melee attack/block actions with any weapon when in melee range (at melee range a soldier could disarm an alien with low Close Combat skill, or at least prevent the alien from firing at the soldier most of the time, this makes Stunrods and other melee weapons practical in some cases), does not affect accuracy.

Heavy Weapons:
Affects TU cost of firing/reloading special purpose heavy weapons such as flame throwers, bolter rifles, miniguns, and a myriad of other exotic weapons outside of standard training, does not affect accuracy, however many of these weapons are quite literally heavy and require a high Strength to use effectively.  (Except when in Prone mode where such penalties do not apply)

Assault Guns:
Affects TU cost of firing/reloading assault weapons such as assault rifles, shotguns, and machineguns, does not affect accuracy.

Sniper Rifles:
Affects TU cost of firing/reloading long range single shot sniper rifles, anti-vehicle rifles, lasers, and railguns, does not affect accuracy (sniper weapons are already more accurate than other weapons in the weapon descriptions).

Demolitions (renamed from High Explosives):
Affects TU cost of firing/reloading rocket launchers, grenade launchers, grenades, proximity mines, demolition charges, does not affect accuracy.

[sirg]

I have some radical ideas about the skill system. I agree on your skill improvement concept completely, but I would like more skills to an actor.
Why? Because right now, we have 4 types of actors from which only the soldier branch are playable. So, I would propose merging all the groups into one, and adding some more skills to make the difference, including science, first aid, medical, etc. OK, you can have combat skills, general skills, aptitude skills, like sciences or medical.

I think you can take the game concept further, by adding more interactions with the map and enviroment, with a ship systems, base objects and computers, etc. So, like others mentioned, one could take a scientist in a mission to help with a crashed ship' systems or other things.

If some of you played Fallout Tactics, you know what I mean... The squad was very diverse, each team member having some skill trained better than the others - one was a master at the art of opening locked doors without the proper key  :wink: , other know to hack security codes and computers, other was good at first aid, etc.

I would add:

First Aid (using the medkit): for healing light wounds, like less than 40% hitpoints

Doctor : for healing major wounds

Science : specific to scientists. In missions it's used for interacting with alien artefacts, systems, devices, etc.

--
I think that shooting well with a pistol (or a shotgun!) doesn't have much to do with close combat - by close combat I understand using mlee weapons or martial arts.

Besides, the sniper should be merged with accuracy, because it takes accuracy to aim properly and hit the target. A sniper rifle is not much different than any other rifle. Maybe it should be function of mind skill as well.

[kaeau]

I think that shooting well with a pistol (or a shotgun!) doesn't have much to do with close combat - by close combat I understand using mlee weapons or martial arts.

i fully agree with that, close combat is far different from using SMGS, pistols, etc

Besides, the sniper should be merged with accuracy, because it takes accuracy to aim properly and hit the target. A sniper rifle is not much different than any other rifle. Maybe it should be function of mind skill as well.

and also that point is evident. complete agreeable
cheers
ka
www.ninc.at

[Winter]

The way I see it, adding even more skills would needlessly increase complexity for no other reason than to increase complexity. We could make separate skills for every single weapon, because they all handle differently -- but it would make for sucky gameplay.

Also, scientists and engineers are in the game because they're specialist non-combat personnel doing specialist non-combat jobs. Soldiers don't do high-energy physics. Merging them into the soldier class would make no sense and would invalidate the research and production system.

This is not Fallout, and Fallout -- while great fun -- was not realistic.

The 'medic' class will most likely be changed into the 'pilot' class later on.

Regards,
Winter

[kaeau]

The way I see it, adding even more skills would needlessly increase complexity for no other reason than to increase complexity. We could make separate skills for every single weapon, because they all handle differently -- but it would make for sucky gameplay.

yeah, but close combat and firearms are simply two different kind of things. its not about getting more complex, it is a thing about letting the player know instantly, what he / she is on to.

some (constructive) possibilities:

* merging sniper and e.g. assault weapons, sniper check with high accuracy input - leaving sniper weapons skill out and add "small arms" (or anything like it, instead.

* sniper check goes directly for sccuracy skills, sniper skill left out and small arms instead

in my own just personal opinion, the whole meele stuff isnt neccessary, but ok, thats just personal and if people like it in so much, ok, perhaps so it should go in. but throwing small firearms and meele weapons into one pot of stew simple doesnt feel right. its not about having everything super complex (which is senseless and i fully agree with winter, hey, it is a game!), it is about defining the best small number of good fitting skill categories needed.
greets
ka
www.ninc.at

[Winter]

yeah, but close combat and firearms are simply two different kind of things. its not about getting more complex, it is a thing about letting the player know instantly, what he / she is on to.

But then you'd have to split things further. Handgun skill, SMG skill, assault rifle skill . . . Unless you say you're fine with shotguns and pistols going in the same skill, but not knives as well. Shotguns and pistols are two very different things, after all.

Adding more skills would require a good deal of extra code and a lot of interface adjustments. In my opinion it would only be feasible during an interface redesign.

Sniper skill should definitely stay. There's a big difference between firing just any rifle (usually bursts or full-auto for assault or battle rifles) and a marksman taking single, highly difficult long-range shots.

Regards,
Winter

[kaeau]

But then you'd have to split things further. Handgun skill, SMG skill, assault rifle skill . . . Unless you say you're fine with shotguns and pistols going in the same skill, but not knives as well. Shotguns and pistols are two very different things, after all.

ok, i see, you wont be convinced in anyway, that there is not the intention behind this, to keep things most realistic, but the intention, that weapons should be sorted in metaphorical skill categories. and, as metaphors go, a shotgun and a pistol fit together, but not a knife. anyway.

so i disagree, you would NOT spilt thing further, just because of first divisions, and in fact, they are splitted and categorized well before, arnt they? and well, sorry, this is not an argument what you are proposing.

Adding more skills would require a good deal of extra code and a lot of interface adjustments. In my opinion it would only be feasible during an interface redesign. Sniper skill should definitely stay. There's a big difference between firing just any rifle (usually bursts or full-auto for assault or battle rifles) and a marksman taking single, highly difficult long-range shots.

ok, with my thoughts before, you dont have to add things. but, ok, let me ask a question: how many sniper weapons are planned so far? - just to get a figure in mind for me, how important this sniper skill is in fact finally.

hmm, and, just to add it like brainstoring: perhaps skill categories like
* single fire weapons
* burst weapons
* heavy weapons
will be interesting? there are sharp shooters, who work with heavy pistols, too, and that professions all have some similarities to the sniper handling. (longer aiming, single shot, trying for critical hits)

anyway, i dont thing it is good either, but my point persists:
putting meele weapons and small arms in one skill group isnt a good soultion.

ka

[Winter]

ok, i see, you wont be convinced in anyway, that there is not the intention behind this, to keep things most realistic, but the intention, that weapons should be sorted in metaphorical skill categories. and, as metaphors go, a shotgun and a pistol fit together, but not a knife. anyway.

so i disagree, you would NOT spilt thing further, just because of first divisions, and in fact, they are splitted and categorized well before, arnt they? and well, sorry, this is not an argument what you are proposing.

I'm sorry, but you've totally lost me. I have no idea what any of that really means.

ok, with my thoughts before, you dont have to add things. but, ok, let me ask a question: how many sniper weapons are planned so far? - just to get a figure in mind for me, how important this sniper skill is in fact finally.

Splitting Close Combat up into firearms and a separate melee skill would require adding a new skill. That's adding.

The current number of sniper weapons planned in my storyline is 1. Which is a good point. We may have to change the sniper skill into something else later and reassess the rest of the skills, but it's too early to do so now.

there are sharp shooters, who work with heavy pistols, too, and that professions all have some similarities to the sniper handling.

Military snipers don't use pistols to make their shots, and for several good reasons. Don't confuse civilian target shooting with anything military.

anyway, i dont thing it is good either, but my point persists:
putting meele weapons and small arms in one skill group isnt a good soultion.

Maybe you don't know this, but 'small arms' comprises the entire range of infantry weapons smaller than grenade/rocket launchers. But that aside, we will reassess the skill list when the time comes. Right now we've got too many other things to finish first.

Regards,
Winter

[sirg]

I see that most of the debated game aspects are already nailed shut. I agree with Kaeau on the knives/pistols issue.
Using a knife implies knowledge of martial arts and maybe throwing, which is also linked to accuracy. But using a gun, any kind of gun, implies different skills, which is obvious.

From what I have played, and I enjoyed the last releases   , knives are a great addition to the gameplay, making things much more interesting. Besides, there are already 3 mlee weapons that I have seen, kerrblade, combat knife and plasma knife, and it makes sense to have a skill for using them efficiently. But the pistols in the game are crap, the pistol is useless, and the shotgun has way to less power. The tachyon pistol is better, but I prefer throwing a plasma knife instead (it does more damage and doesn't use ammo). So the current ingame small guns are poor. Anyway, you can implement others or make them more powerfull.

I think it's odd to have a skill for just one or two weapons - the sniper rifle and the tachyon sniper rifle. As a sidenote, a good marksman can snipe with any rifle, even a Kalashnikov, if the weapon is accurate. It's all about accuracy and handling. So, if you forget about the sniper skill, and replace it with the "martial arts" skill  :wink: it would make much more sense.

Regarding my references to Fallout (Tactics), I wanted to point out that while it was fun, it wasn't very complicated - of course, wasn't proposing to have so many skills, but to use some ideas from that skill system. IMHO, the S.I.M.P.L.E. skill system used by Black Isle was one of the best I have seen, but again, they were more RPG oriented.
I disagree that Fallout wasn't realistic - usually commando squads are highly trained in several fields, maybe except high particle physics, as Winter says,  :wink:  but there are elites trained for using computers, electronics, hacking, using chemicals, whatever. And some are highly trained in more than one field, besides combat.

I thought the game combat system and skill system is under construction. The way I see it, there is still much to be done and to be modified, so changing the interface a bit to fit a new skill or two would be the lesser task. My opinion is that what most gamers like in such a game is lots of weapons. Yeah!  :twisted: So, more skills make up for having more weapons, machine guns, chainguns, launchers, automatic shotguns, explosives, weapon mods, new kinds of ammo, etc. Any skill is useless if the player doesn't have something to relate it with. But if you put more weapons (or items) and say, hey if you like chainguns, look for the heavy weapons skill, or if you like having an agile character that runs and cuts through enemies, look for the martial arts skill,... etc... none will find it complicated.

Good luck with your work, until now it's great.
Sirg

[Robb77]

Hi there this is easily one of the best games i have played ive got some ideas on how to improve the game.  Suppose you have a training area for the soldiers where you can hone there fighting skills,  this could be based on points which is earned for aliens killed or specific tasks completed.  The soldiers can have extensive bionic upgrades available like see through walls, bionic strength lift seriously heavy weapons.  And what about psykich attacks (i.e psy blasts or shields) or bio engineering mix human and alien dna to improve the soldier or make the soldier a living weapon.  Anyway great game  hope you finish it soon and we can all play the finished version soon (up until th sequel)

[Czert]

for combat oriented skills I have ideas:
-mele combat (new) - use of hands, knifes, matrial arts
-light guns - pistols, revolvers, SMGs
-medium guns - assault rifles, underslug grenade launchers, shotguns, light/medium magineguns
-heavy guns - mortars, grenade launchers, bazookas, heyvy machine guns
sniper skills - sniper weapons

and new - medicals skills to replace planed removing of medics - use of medicits and abbility to heal wounds.