weapons vs. skills

[Bandobras]

I have browsed base/ufos/weapons_human.ufo and I wonder about some weapons and their related skills (unless I read it all wrong). I list them as "weapon (skill)". These are :

shotgun (close) and flamethrower (heavy)

rocket launcher (explosive) and grenade launcher (heavy)

Is it random or are the skills assigned so as to balance their relative usefulness? What about realism, especially with the second pair? Will descriptions match the skills, in particular are the rockets described as not heavy (the launcher itself is light, indeed) and the grenade launcher as heavy (why would it be?)?

How will the player distinguish weapon classes, when he assigns equipment to his soldiers? Especially with weapons that have different skills in different shooting modes? Isn't utter simplicity better here? For example, all weapons with every shot type having range at most x are (close), all single-handed weapons (e.g. grenades) with every shot type having explosive effect are (explosive), all with range bigger than y are (sniper), all with weight above z are (heavy), all the rest are (assault). Or something like that, but make sure the sets have empty intersections and that the relevant infor (e.g., weapon weight) is visible when equiping soldiers.

If its all thought out and not likely to change, I'm fine with it. I'm just trying to make sure and perhaps help by discussion...

[Mattn]

this is just an error.

have a look at http://ufo.myexp.de/wiki/index.php/Equipment/Human_Weapons

there should be the skill classes. if you find the time, please tweak the weapons and send in a patch to patch tracker at http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=add&group_id=157793&atid=805244

there are other weapons like the bolterrifle which needs to be completly redone (in the script files)

[Bandobras]

this is just an error.

have a look at http://ufo.myexp.de/wiki/index.php/Equipment/Human_Weapons

there should be the skill classes.

No skills there... The "Skill" fields in the descriptions are void. The sections in the contents table do not directly correspond to skills, e.g., there is no "explosives" skill. Unless it is "Grenades"? I presume mines are not affected by any skill? What are the official player-visible names of the skills?  Are they the ones in the soldier skill view? Should not they be listed the same in the wiki?

if you find the time, please tweak the weapons

I would (if I find the time), but there has to be a consensus and, perhaps, code changes (currently skills are listed along with shot types, not with weapons).

[Bandobras]

Just for now, until the things are sorted out, I'm going to do a patch that changes pistol Aimed Shot spread from "2.8 4" to "3 3" (since single shot cannot be penalized by recoil, can it?) and changes Rocket Laucher skill from explosive to heavy, in accordance with the Wiki. Sorting out the wiki headings has to wait until someone responds to my earlier post.

I have one more problem: the Stun Rod has only primary shooting mode, while many weapons (e.g. grenades and grenade laucher) have primary and secondary modes that are strictly the same. Which is better? Are the other weapons expected to get another shooting mode in the future? Or is the Stun Rod case a bug?

[Bandobras]

I code-dived and documented the "damage" and "spldmg" fields of ammo descriptions. See

http://ufo.myexp.de/wiki/index.php/UFO-Scripts/weapon_%2A.ufo

Now that I know the second number limits the random part of the damage that can be added/subtracted, I think the Frag Grenade and Grenade Launcher damage should be

Code: [Select]

spldmg  "100 30"
just as for Rocket Launcher and not

Code: [Select]

spldmg  "100 10" as it is now. Grenades are known to be very variable in damage, because their impact depends on the furniture, growth, walls, ground type, any obstacles, facing of the victim, etc.

[Bandobras]

One more quirk: Plasma Blade does less damage when thrown, Knife does equal damage, Kerr Blade does more damage when thrown. I think the Plasma Blade behaviour is correct, since when you stab you do it with more force, you can twist the blade, move it upwards, etc.

Do you know any interesting physical or fictional reason the blades should behave differently? Any nice game-play effect of that? If not, I will include the simplification in my patch.

[Bandobras]

And one more quirk. Standard pistol and tachyon pistol are the only two weapons that a bigger damage first shot mode and smaller damage second. In particular, the two other pistols have stronger second shooting mode. I think this is misleading so I would reverse the modes of  the standard and tachyon pistols.

I would also change the name of the second shot of standard pistol and tachyon pistol from Aimed Shot to Single Shot so that the rule that Aimed Shot is always the second shot mode is not broken. The two are not very well aimed, anyway...

[Bandobras]

Here is the patch. Only for weapons_human.ufo for now. Nice testing! (I've already done some.)

Everyting described in this thread is included in the patch, plus the latest version of the Bolter Rifle, plus a lot of small visual tweaks to the weapon scales and positions in inventories. The last part I cannot argue for, since it's totally subjective.

The patch is here on sourceforge.net.

[Mattn]

the patch is in svn now.

there were some discussion about the skills moving to weapons and removed from ammo/shoottypes. i disagree with this idea because some weapons may fire high explosives (secondary) and normal bullets (primary)

[Bandobras]

the patch is in svn now.

Cool! I'm honoured. If there is no user/previous authors outrage I will try my hand with the other weapon script files...

there were some discussion about the skills moving to weapons and removed from ammo/shoottypes. i disagree with this idea because some weapons may fire high explosives (secondary) and normal bullets (primary)

You may be right, but I think you contradict yourself, or I misunderstood you. You said

this is just an error.

have a look at http://ufo.myexp.de/wiki/index.php/Equipment/Human_Weapons

there should be the skill classes.

And in the wiki the skill fields in weapon descriptions are void and the only indication of skill is the heading under which a weapon appears. Based on that I changed Rocket Launcher skill from "explosive" to "heavy". Isn't that the thing you refered to as "an error"? So I corrected the error, but then Rocket Launcher fires only explosive ammunition, despite having "heavy" skill.

Perhaps we could change "explosive" skill to "grenades" skill (this is how wiki calls it)  and the problem of multiple skill weapons would be solved? After all there are no other skills based on damage type --- no "fire", "plasma", "tachyon" skill, etc. Perhaps also move Bolter Rifle to "precision" or "assault" skill, and/or move Grenade Launcher from "heavy" to "grenades" so that "heavy" is not overcrowded?

I do not insist, but multiple skills for one weapon result in considerable complication for the player. How to categorize documentation about weapons (and, currently, the wiki)? How to display the double weapon skills while buying, equiping soldiers, and even shooting (for double skill weapons this would be useful, for single skill weapons not so, because you know your soldier is equally good with both shooting modes)? Actually the optimization of equipment for soldiers based on two weapon skills, instead of one, could be really nice mini-game in itself, but this is already quite complex for the average Joe with both "accuracy" and the weapon skill influencing a weapon choice...

What do you think?

[Mattn]

We should rename the Grenade skill to explosive skill. Don't know who put the weapons into these sections...  but i think that these are not the skill sections. they are shown in each weapon article (at least they should be shown, there)

the skills does not say anything about the damagetypes. the damagetypes are just for armor and some internal stuff. the skills says something about the hit ratio.

Cool! I'm honoured. Smile If there is no user/previous authors outrage I will try my hand with the other weapon script files...

Please do this. The weapons needs more tweaking - especially the new ones. You can also search for new sounds at the links posted here: http://ufo.myexp.de/wiki/index.php/Music_and_sounds

You may be right, but I think you contradict yourself, or I misunderstood you

My fault, i meant in the weapon articles not directly on this site... as i said i not even sure who did that...

And last but not least: Yes, we should move some weapons to other skill classes to not overcrowed some classes where other classes has no weapons. but these changes should be reasonable.

[Bandobras]

Great! At last some policy...

We should rename the Grenade skill to explosive skill.

I will gladly do that and fill in the skill fields in the wiki (and redo some of my changes to weapon scripts). But some more arguing first.

Don't know who put the weapons into these sections...  but i think that these are not the skill sections.

OK. So what are they? Are they related to the misterious other weapon fields, as  mentioned in the #1512600 bug report? Do we keep these sections or divide the items in the wiki only in the way they are divided in the ingame inventory (primary, secondary, misc, armour)? Perhaps one more division --- those avaiable from the start and the rest, so as not to spoil newbies?

the skills says something about the hit ratio

Could you explain, please? I think this is very important. Please, explain.

And: are you abolutely sure the complications with double skills for weapons are worth it? I will enjoy them for sure (I will even code-dive, in case of problems), but both interface programmers and casual gamers may be upset. I just don't want to redo the weapon changes again and again, if you change your mind...

And last but not least: Yes, we should move some weapons to other skill classes to not overcrowed some classes where other classes has no weapons. but these changes should be reasonable.

Ideas welcome in this thread! I will tidy up the wiki and post some of my ideas, too.

[Mattn]

OK. So what are they? Are they related to the misterious other weapon fields, as  mentioned in the #1512600 bug report? Do we keep these sections or divide the items in the wiki only in the way they are divided in the ingame inventory (primary, secondary, misc, armour)? Perhaps one more division --- those avaiable from the start and the rest, so as not to spoil newbies?

we can seperate them by primary, secondary and so on. no problem. or to skilltypes... what do you think is better?

they are currently not related to anything i think.

the skills says something about the hit ratio

Could you explain, please? I think this is very important. Please, explain.

Code: [Select]

#define GET_ACC( ability_accuracy, weapon_skill ) ((1.5 - (float)(ability_accuracy)/MAX_SKILL) * pow(0.8, (weapon_skill)/50) )

float acc = GET_ACC(ent->chr.skills[ABILITY_ACCURACY], fd->weaponSkill ? ent->chr.skills[fd->weaponSkill] : 0);

The acc value is multiplied with pitch any yaw angles.

the ability and skill types were defined in q_shared.h with typdef abilityskills_t

And: are you abolutely sure the complications with double skills for weapons are worth it? I will enjoy them for sure (I will even code-dive, in case of problems), but both interface programmers and casual gamers may be upset. I just don't want to redo the weapon changes again and again, if you change your mind...

if we are talking about the same things - yes. they are already implemented and works great.

[Bandobras]

we can seperate them by primary, secondary and so on. no problem

Good. I've just noticed there is already the separation of human (bullet and laser) and alien (plasma and tachyon) weapons in the wiki. Is it sound wrt. the techtree? If so, then I guess I will keep the separation.

or we can seperate them [...] to skilltypes... what do you think is better?

By skilltypes is impossible, because some weapons have two different skills for their two shooting modes. I'm worried that we are again not understanding each other. Could you confirm what I've just said?

And: are you abolutely sure the complications with double skills for weapons are worth it?[...]

if we are talking about the same things - yes. they are already implemented and works great.

I'm talking about the fact that, e.g. Laser Rifle has two weapon skills, precise and assault (and not only precise, as you erroneusly stated in the wiki) and this is a complication. Right? And no, this is not fully imlemented in the game interface, because currently the player has no way of veryfying the skills for Laser Rifle, apart of code-diving. Right?

the skills says something about the hit ratio

Could you explain, please? I think this is very important. Please, explain.

Ahh, sorry, I misuderstood you. I thought you are going to explain to me the criteria of assigning skills to shooting modes, e.g. why there is "explosive" skill, while there is no "plasma", or "tachyon" skill. But I guess I begin to see this myself: "explosive" does not mean that the damage type is "blast"; it only says that the damage is mostly done with splash damage. Right? If so, I guess both Rocket Laucher and Grenade Laucher should be "explosive"? And I though the error was that they should be both "heavy"... :oops:

[Mattn]

I'm talking about the fact that, e.g. Laser Rifle has two weapon skills, precise and assault (and not only precise, as you erroneusly stated in the wiki) and this is a complication. Right? And no, this is not fully imlemented in the game interface, because currently the player has no way of veryfying the skills for Laser Rifle, apart of code-diving. Right?

Ah, now i know what you mean

That's no big deal though. We can just show them up in the ufopedia.