UGV Control Facility

[Winter]

I'm posting this idea here before I forget it.

I had a thought that UGVs should have special facilities in order to be stored, armed and used effectively. Without a UGV Control Facility at the base, you would not be able to send out UGVs with missions launched from that base. UGVs in storage would not be armed or repaired without a UGV Control Facility.

The facility would support a maximum of about 2-4 UGVs, therefore you wouldn't be able to bring any more than that on a mission.

Opinions?

Regards,
Winter

[Wanderer]

I'm posting this idea here before I forget it.

I had a thought that UGVs should have special facilities in order to be stored, armed and used effectively. Without a UGV Control Facility at the base, you would not be able to send out UGVs with missions launched from that base. UGVs in storage would not be armed or repaired without a UGV Control Facility.

The facility would support a maximum of about 2-4 UGVs, therefore you wouldn't be able to bring any more than that on a mission.

Opinions?

Regards,
Winter

Once nice part about late game base defense was having 30-40 of these things sitting around in your bases in storage rooms, ready to chew up and abuse the alien invaders.

I'm not exactly excited by this idea.

[BTAxis]

On external missions, you're limited by your dropship size. Since a dropship can carry at best 8 soldiers (alright, more in a later stage of game development. There are plans to increase the soldier limit. Here's to hoping it won't go past 12), that means you will typically never bring more than 2 UGVs on a mission anyway, as one UGV takes up the space of 4 soldiers. Some more advanced dropships could arguably hold more if they were designed for UGV transport, but even so each UGV would take up one soldier slot on the HUD, and they're not very versatile in close quarters, which is a good reason not to bring more than a couple.

So in effect, such a limitation would only really be felt in base defence missions.

[Wanderer]

On external missions, you're limited by your dropship size. Since a dropship can carry at best 8 soldiers (alright, more in a later stage of game development. There are plans to increase the soldier limit. Here's to hoping it won't go past 12), that means you will typically never bring more than 2 UGVs on a mission anyway, as one UGV takes up the space of 4 soldiers. Some more advanced dropships could arguably hold more if they were designed for UGV transport, but even so each UGV would take up one soldier slot on the HUD, and they're not very versatile in close quarters, which is a good reason not to bring more than a couple.

So in effect, such a limitation would only really be felt in base defence missions.

[HACK WHACK SMACK EDIT]

I'm not in agreement with you on the maximum size of the dropship at 12, BT.  Not that it matters much, but my opinion below.

In the original UFO, UGV's and equivalent were weakened so it didn't become a tank warfare game (Health = 90, but great armor).  They took up 4 spaces, too, so you put yourself at a significant tactical disadvantage in numerical superiority.  If I remember correctly, you could get about 26 team members into the final dropship.  This allowed you 4 to 5 UGVs if you chose with a decent number of team members.  Heck, the original Skyranger got 14. (Handy link: http://www.xcomufo.com/x1ufopaedia/index.html)

If you keep ship sizes down at the 8-12 level, you will have made UGV's a completely worthless research endeavour unless they are godsends of firepower and armor on the battlefield, in which case, why care about the men?  The only reason to research them would be for the points, as losing 33% or more of your team for *1* of these things seems overkill.

One of my biggest complaints about the old game was that you couldn't hook UGV's to the wings instead of missiles or whatnot, and drop them when you landed.  This might be a good way to counteract the smaller dropships, and give UGV's an additional 'bonus', without having to turn them into rolling slaughter machines.
-----

Now, if you really wanted to mess with people, Winter, as to controlling these things, hand out single handed control units.  This would give you your limitations without really hurting the idea.  Each human with a controller could control *1* non-AI UGV.  Two guys and an arsenal of UGVs at a base could eventually eliminate the entire alien squad.  Maybe.

It'd really bite on missions, though.  Instead of losing four spots for the UGV, now you're losing 5 (the guy stuck controlling it until it dies).  Joy.  Maybe that isn't such a great idea, after all...

[BTAxis]

In the original UFO, UGV's and equivalent were weakened so it didn't become a tank warfare game (Health = 90, but great armor).  They took up 4 spaces, too, so you put yourself at a significant tactical disadvantage in numerical superiority.  If I remember correctly, you could get about 26 team members into the final dropship.  This allowed you 4 to 5 UGVs if you chose with a decent number of team members.  Heck, the original Skyranger got 14. (Handy link: http://www.xcomufo.com/x1ufopaedia/index.html)

This is true, but keep in mind that the UFO:EU maps were considerably bigger than the UFO:AI ones. Bringing 26 soldiers to most of the maps we have now would practically mean they'd have to breathe in turn. I feel 8-12 soldiers is just right. More, and it stops being squad-based combat and starts being army-based combat.

If you keep ship sizes down at the 8-12 level, you will have made UGV's a completely worthless research endeavour unless they are godsends of firepower and armor on the battlefield, in which case, why care about the men?  The only reason to research them would be for the points, as losing 33% or more of your team for *1* of these things seems overkill.

I consider UGVs to be very effective in combat, dishing out serious damage while taking a lot of punishment. If they weren't, I'd never take them. I still care about men because UGVs are bulky and unable to fight in close quarters, which is where you'll ultimately find the most enemies.

[Destructavator]

Just a thought here, not necessarily one that has to be implemented:

What if UGVs were carried in a seperate part of a dropship instead of taking up a solider slot (such as a UGV cargo pod in the ship equip screen, along with fuel pods, weapons, etc.)?

Opinions?  Just an idea...

[Wanderer]

This is true, but keep in mind that the UFO:EU maps were considerably bigger than the UFO:AI ones. Bringing 26 soldiers to most of the maps we have now would practically mean they'd have to breathe in turn. I feel 8-12 soldiers is just right. More, and it stops being squad-based combat and starts being army-based combat.

Hm, perhaps, but I liked the whole concept of the army not sending in a handful of people when they had the VTOL assets to deliver a lot larger of a squad.  Besides, you needed the extra space on the later and harder levels to put in some UGVs so they could absorb fire while your men ran into positions.  Once you start looking at one shot kills regularly and getting psionic'd before you even left the Dropship, you needed *something*.  

I'd also like to *see* larger maps.  I'd hoped we were trying to get past how tiny the current ones are.

That's why I was thinking perhaps storylining using the hardpoints on the dropship to allow for exterior carrying of the UGV's, so you can have your 12 men.  I guess part of it is I *miss* having 26 newbies, tossing them into the blenders, coming back with 6 and adding them to the 'real' squad.

Also, with more men, you rarely had this problem of alien's sneaking around behind you.  More and more I find having 2, maybe 3 fireteams moving and covering each other doesn't allow for a 'full sweep'.  Take the bunker as a prime example.  It's rediculously easy for men to sweep behind you.  I'd prefer 'army' on 'army' once I have the ability to get them there.

I consider UGVs to be very effective in combat, dishing out serious damage while taking a lot of punishment. If they weren't, I'd never take them. I still care about men because UGVs are bulky and unable to fight in close quarters, which is where you'll ultimately find the most enemies.

You don't have enough men to fight in close quarters in Hard/VH if you take a UGV to the wrong map (subway, mineshaft, towers, etc... especially anything with stairs).  Hope you saved before you landed so you can go get a different loadout.

[BTAxis]

I'd also like to *see* larger maps.  I'd hoped we were trying to get past how tiny the current ones are.

Absolutely. Some of them are alright, but especially the random maps are cramped at best with the current configuration.

That's why I was thinking perhaps storylining using the hardpoints on the dropship to allow for exterior carrying of the UGV's, so you can have your 12 men.  I guess part of it is I *miss* having 26 newbies, tossing them into the blenders, coming back with 6 and adding them to the 'real' squad.

I usually kept my team to a modest number of men and did everything to keep them alive. Though I must admit that a large part of the reason for this is that having to equip all your soldier before every single mission played a part in that. As you might expect, this game will be better in that area.

You don't have enough men to fight in close quarters in Hard/VH if you take a UGV to the wrong map (subway, mineshaft, towers, etc... especially anything with stairs).  Hope you saved before you landed so you can go get a different loadout.

Well, if an UGV only takes a soldier slot on the HUD and assuming 12 soldiers for the sake of the argument, you'd still have 10 men to spare if you took 2 UGVs. With the UGVs patrolling the surface, you should be able to handle the rest with the soldiers.

[Wanderer]

Well, if an UGV only takes a soldier slot on the HUD and assuming 12 soldiers for the sake of the argument, you'd still have 10 men to spare if you took 2 UGVs. With the UGVs patrolling the surface, you should be able to handle the rest with the soldiers.

*applies brakes*... a 2x2 UGV = 4 soldiers, not 1, in 'dropship space'.  Did I miss a design choice along the way?

[BTAxis]

I was assuming you don't have to sacrifice 4 soldier spaces in your dropship for every UGV you take along, as has been suggested in this thread and in others. There's a lot to be said for it, as the UGVs could be transported in a special equipment bay or in pods on the outside of the ship, etc, etc.

[Wanderer]

I was assuming you don't have to sacrifice 4 soldier spaces in your dropship for every UGV you take along, as has been suggested in this thread and in others. There's a lot to be said for it, as the UGVs could be transported in a special equipment bay or in pods on the outside of the ship, etc, etc.

Ah, I see, so that's a definate difference in design from the original series.  I hadn't seen nor heard any official mention of it, but perhaps it was hashed and rehashed long before I arrived, so please, pardon my ignorance.

I'm still going to miss deploying my Company Sized armored infantry unit to kill the hive queen.  It wasn't until very recently that I figured out why it felt like each loss hit my team so much harder then I remember the original doing so.  Then again, our teams start in the wide open, instead of the old way of deploying out of the ship and being able to slowly spread and cover each other.  

I'm still on the fence about which I preferred.  The first turn or two was either very boring as you deployed, or very hectic as you hid behind your own wheels.  Now you're scattering for cover straight out of the gates hoping nothing runs out from a door because your ship's practically pointless in that regard.

EDIT::

From earlier in the conversation:

... There are plans to increase the soldier limit. Here's to hoping it won't go past 12), that means you will typically never bring more than 2 UGVs on a mission anyway, as one UGV takes up the space of 4 soldiers.
...

[Zenerka]

I like the idea of facility designed for rearming and repairing UGVs, though IMO it should also be available in Workshop, maybe at slower rate.
Mind that every new type of facility -> bigger base map and everyone knows that base defence mission with large base is PITA, especially on slower GPUs.

The soldiers limits would be defined per dropship type, of course. Basicaly the code is ready for that except needed changes in HUDs (to handle more than 8 soldiers).

[BTAxis]

Speaking of which, where's RaXaR with his GUI?

[Winter]

I like the idea of facility designed for rearming and repairing UGVs, though IMO it should also be available in Workshop, maybe at slower rate.
Mind that every new type of facility -> bigger base map and everyone knows that base defence mission with large base is PITA, especially on slower GPUs.

The soldiers limits would be defined per dropship type, of course. Basicaly the code is ready for that except needed changes in HUDs (to handle more than 8 soldiers).

The main aim of this building was to keep UGVs from being used en masse with no penalties or explanations, since UGVs would realistically need some specialised equipment and trained operators to be effective. Upping the limit to 6 UGVs per mission wouldn't bother me, as long as the building was in the game.

Regards,
Winter

[Surrealistik]

Thread necromancy perhaps, but I don't feel creating a new thread to be necessary.

My opinion is this, simply. No UGV control centre.

As for the why, it's essentially another facility to clutter, expand and occupy the base with a function that is redundant. It is redundant in terms of balance because the tradeoff of four men is substantial. It is redundant in terms of realism, because workshops can be responsible for the repair of UGV at a rate dicated by the # of workers you have that are unoccupied (work allocation/micromanagement should exist for them as it does with scientists). If you've got storage facilities, that's where the UGVs go when not in use. If you've got a Command Centre (I should hope so), that's where the UGV direction takes place (that said, if you don't have a Command Centre, no UGVs for you, although you're screwed regardless).

Even with the existing deployment limitations concerning the maximum number of soldiers, UGVs can easily prove useful without being overpowered simply through proper tweaking. There is a golden mean between over and underpowered, and it can be found. Balance is not inaccessible here.