Laser Rifle - useless ?

[inquisiteur2]

I love the design and the concept but not the weapon stats.

On difficult settings I managed to develop laser rifles with clips and went on a terror mission in the stadium (ideal pleace for such weaponry since there is long distance shooting).

Fortunalty only one of my soldiers have been equiped with the laser rifle because I realised that actually the pre-warp assault rifle, or even the automatic pistol where much more effective. Damage rate is ridiculous.

We could keep the same damage rate and the same accuracy, but the action points cost is too high; this weapon has no pros since a soldier equiped with a laser rifle can simply not match any other soldier, even against melee equiped opponents. I would at the very least divide the action points requirement by 2 for each firing mode.

By the way, did somone work on the weapon balancing at this time ? I could take a look at it...(As long as I don't have to code that its ok for me).

[blondandy]

i think the lasers are a bit pointless too. lots of people have commented about general weapon balancing.

in the campaign, i proceed straight to the plasma research. also human starting guns are better than lasers.

[Zenerka]

Two months ago people were complaining that lasers are overpowered. Then we lowered stats. Now people are complaining that lasers are too weak.
People are right in both cases.
That is just a matter of balancing.

[inquisiteur2]

This time they are really really week....do we have somewhere a comparative table for all weapons ?

If no I can still create an excell sheet using the stats provided in the wikipedia/game.

[Zenerka]

Please do. Do not use stats from wiki. Go to base/ dir, unpack 0ufos.pk3 (or enter ufo dir if you are using something other than installer) and grab stats from weapons_*.ufo files.
Also, it could be great to have such weapon stats page on the wiki, if you have time...

[jbabcock]

Please do. Do not use stats from wiki. Go to base/ dir, unpack 0ufos.pk3 (or enter ufo dir if you are using something other than installer) and grab stats from weapons_*.ufo files.
Also, it could be great to have such weapon stats page on the wiki, if you have time...

And please include not only damage and time but also damage rate (damage/tu). In a sustained firefight with multiple soldiers that is probably the most important stat. Obviously, for reaction fire and one on one combat this is not necessarily true, but in AI the adage about a firefight being about who has more firepower seems to hold true. You may also want to figure in reload times damage_per_round / (time_per_round + (reload_time/mag_capacity)).
This will make a big difference for weapons with small magazines. I'm not sure how the source (pack, belt) of the ammo affects the reload time though, that could also be a factor.

Also damage type would be useful to have as well.

[blondandy]

i am on it.

http://ufoai.ninex.info/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1398&highlight=

for your own sanity, don't do it in excel.

give me a few days, more tables to come...

[inquisiteur2]

Ah I wasn't aware of that, I you require some suggestion I would be happy to look at it once it is finalised, or if you have a more detailed draft to submit.

[Surrealistik]

Reload times are rarely signifigant at all unless the following criteria, measured through use of this calculation is met:

# of enemy soldiers / by the # of your soldiers / 2 (your soldiers can be reasonably expected to inflict up to twice the casualties worth of damage minimally necessary)* 115 (approximate average of extreme low and high health).

/ this by # of rounds * the average of the min and max damage per round given the weapon's firemodes * average protection % vs the weapon damage type afforded by all armours.

If this quotient is greater than 1, there is a considerable probability that reloading will occur.

So let's say the average protection vs fire was 50% (.50), and I'm using a flamethrower. There are 8 soldiers on the opposing team. There are 4 on mine.

Ammo is 6.

Step #1: ((90 / 1 (Candlelight)) + (180 / 2 (Inferno))) / 2 = 90
Step #2: 90 * 6 = 540
Step #3: 540 * .50 <? 115 * (8 / (4 / 2))
Step #4: 270 <? 115 * 4
Step #5: 270 < 460
Step #6: 460 / 270 = 1.703 - 1 (Representing the first clip which does not require reloading).
Step #7: 1 (Round up because we cannot partially load a magazine)

Result is > 0 so reloading is likely and thus relevant, making it prudent to factor in the impact of reloading when regarding the Damage/TU efficiency/firepower of a weapon.

As soon as I get good data pertaining to:

A: the average range at which combat occurs, and

B: the impact of various spreads at this range on hit probability.

I will factor in an accuracy component as well. Clearly this isn't a model which offers perfectly accurate predictions, but it is a useful one. Please note that "overkill" firemodes (ones that use more ammo than is necessary to kill a single target, SMG full auto for example), and those that feature splash damage may present exceptions.

The protection % used in this calculation should obviously be adjusted as appropriate if you know the armour your opponent will be equipped with, or your knowledge otherwise suggests that a bias towards a certain value is more appropriate than a simple average.

EDIT: Added some clarifications (hopefully).

[Wanderer]

Please note that "overkill" firemodes (ones that use more ammo than is necessary to kill a single target, SMG full auto for example), and those that feature splash damage may present exceptions.

On Very Hard, and sometimes even hard... there is no overkill... just proper application of excessive force.

[Surrealistik]

Haha, true, though 'overkill' is definitely common in regular difficulty/multiplayer games.

As for the laser weapons, I completely agree.

By the way, did somone work on the weapon balancing at this time ? I could take a look at it...(As long as I don't have to code that its ok for me).

Yes. I have a 0ufo.pk3 file availible for download and use here. Simply substitute the old one in the base subdirectory of your UFO 2.1.1 folder. Please provide me with feedback regarding the changes, and back up your original 0ufo.pk3 file.

[Woreczko]

Yes. I have a 0ufo.pk3 file availible for download and use here. Simply substitute the old one in the base subdirectory of your UFO 2.1.1 folder. Please provide me with feedback regarding the changes, and back up your original 0ufo.pk3 file.

A bit of feedback:

1. Flamethrower seems overpowered. It (almost?) never misses, deals fantastic damage (there is not much resistance vs fire) and costs a mere 8 TU for candlelight. I would suggest upping the TU cost for it`s fire modes. I mean, how can you use a flamethrower with the same speed as assault rifle? Both cost 8 TU for 1st fire mode and 12 for inferno/3-round burst, while FT is much more damaging. It`s range is short, yes, but at those 8 squares it still has 100% to hit, while weapons such as shotgun or SMG are barely effective at such a distance already. I have no problem with FT frying everything in 1 blaze of inferno, but the soldier wielding it shouldn`t be able to escape afterwards so easily. What about making it 12/18 or 12/20 for appropiate fire mods?

2. You upped plasma blaster ammo to 50, yet it`s magazines are smaller (1x1)  than those of a rifle. A bit inconsisitent. I admit, that aliens are kicking my butt with this weapon (that damn blast radius offsets poor accuracy )... would be nice if it had at least one weakness. Like small range, low ammo or whatever.

Overall a whole system would benefit tremendously if we could implement a weight as a factor. Heavy heavy weapons would lose some of it`s appeal if they started to seriously weigh you down.

And thanks for your work, btw

[Surrealistik]

1. Flamethrower seems overpowered. It (almost?) never misses, deals fantastic damage (there is not much resistance vs fire) and costs a mere 8 TU for candlelight. I would suggest upping the TU cost for it`s fire modes. I mean, how can you use a flamethrower with the same speed as assault rifle? Both cost 8 TU for 1st fire mode and 12 for inferno/3-round burst, while FT is much more damaging. It`s range is short, yes, but at those 8 squares it still has 100% to hit, while weapons such as shotgun or SMG are barely effective at such a distance already. I have no problem with FT frying everything in 1 blaze of inferno, but the soldier wielding it shouldn`t be able to escape afterwards so easily. What about making it 12/18 or 12/20 for appropiate fire mods?

The problem with increasing its TU cost is the fact that the soldier needs to close distance prior to utilizing the thrower. While it is true that it typically equates to instant death (I should hope so), you would do well to keep in mind that there are many weapons which are compartively lethal at far longer ranges. Closing distance also means that your thrower equipped soldier is that much less likely to have the TUs necessary to escape retribution. Because this is true, the risk demanded of such close proximity should be reciprocated with the reward of high lethality. I definitely will note this however, and see if it correlates with any other feedback (that aside the shotgun has been strongly empowered in this patch, you should try it).

2. You upped plasma blaster ammo to 50, yet it`s magazines are smaller (1x1) than those of a rifle. A bit inconsisitent. I admit, that aliens are kicking my butt with this weapon (that damn blast radius offsets poor accuracy  )... would be nice if it had at least one weakness. Like small range, low ammo or whatever.

I'm merely following the UFOpedia design suggestions. The Plasma Blaster is meant as a powerful, long range suppressive fire weapon. This inconsistancy may be explained by the fact that the magazine is an ultradense battery as opposed to a chamber filled with physical ammunition. That said, the weakness of the plasma blaster is inherant in its poor accuracy, and high TU cost of operation. While the splash damage of the ball firemode projectiles does offset the former weakness somewhat, you will lose a long range firefight with high accuracy weapons such as the laser family (which has been signifigantly buffed in this modification) nearly all of the time. Also, with more advanced armours, the splash damage is almost negligible; only direct hits will do any appreciable harm.

Weight will eventually be implimented. This is meant as another of the Plasma Blaster's weaknesses (and one of the Flamethrower's as well).

Lastly I would like to thank you for the contribution of the feedback. The more of it I receive, the sooner and better I can review and retool the weapon balance. Keep it coming!

[Woreczko]

No problem

Regarding flamethrower, you are probably right from the gameplay perspective. It just seemed to me not "realistic" (but hey, it is s-f afterall!), that it`s so fast and good in hit&run tactics (I dropped SMG and shotgun in favor of FT). I guess introduction of weight may rectify this problem without altering TU costs.

As for plasma blaster, I encountered it very early in the game, so not surprisingly it gave me hard times against the aliens. But that`s not that bad to feel like fighting in WW I trench warfare once in a while

[vulkus]

With regards to the laser weapons, the pistol is pointless except as a suicide weapon. The laser rifle would make a fantastic sniper weapon and the heavy would be ideally suited to an air to air weapon or as a short range heavy weapon. The heavies range is to long, if it requires someone with great strength to wield it, I doubt they would be able to hold it for very long.

I think the lasers have great potential, yet they are out gunned, due to the the aliens better weapons. No sooner have you researched lasers and beginning production and they have moved from plasma to particle.
I think the alien weapons should be based on a human success ratio. If you are getting good kills with the laser, they bring out heavy plasma. You research plasma and get your own back. Also it could depend upon your armour stats.

Basically I think your always out gunned and out armoured.