project-navigation
Personal tools

Author Topic: Laser Rifle - useless ?  (Read 22146 times)

Takai

  • Guest
Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2007, 02:23:53 pm »
I always saw laser weapons as a simple (to both reseach and produce) substitute for plasma weapons unless plasmas are captured in reasonable numbers and then researched. It was clipless not by accident!

By making a clip-fed laser, it's no longer worth it anymore. Research clip for every weapon? I can research much better plasma instead (and never come back)! Painstingly remember to produce clips for every single mission? I can (and often must) produce other things instead (like plasma clips, if needed)!

Laser = worthless gimmick now (even more since it's appearantly inferior even to firearms). But OK, your game.

Takai

  • Guest
Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2007, 03:45:54 pm »
Also< I noticed you seem to make laser weapons a sniper weapons. How about Heavy Laser being a long-range single shot weapon, and Laser Rifle being a general-purpose rifle?

Surrealistik

  • Guest
Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2007, 08:24:21 am »
I've spoken with BTAxis about the laser weaponry over IRC. We've come to the seeming consensus that the laser pistol and rifle will become much faster firing, increasing their damage/TU (raw efficiency) ratio, in addition to the latter's clip size. The heavy laser in the meanwhile may utilize the sniper skill, and is likely to be made more damaging. These cumulative changes should have the effect of making the laser series viable.

Aiki-Knight

  • Guest
Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2008, 12:39:28 am »
As for the aliens' weapons' superiority, I think they should indeed be superior, in some cases, even in every respect. The aliens' technology should considerably outstrip human tech; weapons balance is a contradiction in terms with the premise of the game being what it is. The player should have to resort to superior tactics, discipline, fire-arc control and layout in order to overcome superior technology in the aliens, and game skill-level selection can compensate for those learning the game. I know that most, if not all, players of this game already engage in such tactics, but I'd like to emphasize that it's the difficult odds of the story that make it such a compelling one.

Serrax

  • Guest
Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2008, 10:22:51 am »
I share Aiki-Knight's point of view. I'd prefer the alien technology keeping superior vs. the human tech.

Furher:

For me, all laser-weapons but the heavy laser are balanced. For the heavy laser I would suggest more ammo (for example 9 shots like the grenade launcher).

And of course, I'd like a ultra-heavy laser-cannon for the interceptors (other thread?).

cu

Offline EuchreJack

  • Rookie
  • ***
  • Posts: 33
    • View Profile
Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2008, 12:06:46 am »
We have to remember this post was started before the laser weapons were rebalanced.  It seems that lasers are currently the most accurate weapons in the game.  The laser rifle, with it's assault skill, is more accurate than the sniper rifle with it's sniper skill.

Surrealistik

  • Guest
Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2008, 04:44:52 am »
Yeah, laser weapons are pretty effective now. Personally I find some tweaks are still in order though. Accuracy for the series should be proportional to weapon power, rather than inverse (last I checked in 2.2 this was the case). This makes sense both in terms of realism and gameplay. As it stands, it's absurd that the laser pistol, the weapon with the shortest range, is the most accurate.

Further laser weapons at present seem to stray from the low damage design initially intended for them; currently their damage output per shot is very competitive. I recommend reducing damage and firemode TU costs alike to address this inconsistancy. Of course, this makes them less desirable in their role as extreme range sniper weapons, and exasperates the existing issue of a small ammo capacity, so in order to compensate, I suggest both increasing clip sizes across the board (especially in the case of the laser rifle which is also meant to be an assault weapon), and implimenting some sort of secondary 'overcharge' fire mode. In exchange for additional ammo and TU usage, the laser weapons could deliver powerful, accurate single shots proportional to the excess ammo expended.

Woreczko

  • Guest
Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2008, 10:39:31 am »
Some tweaking by myself:
Code: [Select]
// =======================
// LASER PISTOL
// =======================
item laserpistol
{
name "_Laser Pistol"
model weapons/laserpistol/laserpistol
weapon true
type pistol
animationindex 2
holdtwohanded false
firetwohanded false
shape "0 0 3 2"
center "2.5 0 1.2"
scale 1.7
ammo 26
reload 10
price 5400
size 10
buytype weap_sec
}

// =======================
// LASER RIFLE
// =======================
item laserrifle
{
name "_Laser Rifle"
model weapons/laserrifle/laserrifle
weapon true
type rifle
animationindex 1
holdtwohanded false
firetwohanded true
shape "0 0 5 2"
center "4.5 0 1.5"
scale 1.26
ammo 18
reload 14
price 9570
size 35
buytype weap_pri
}


// =======================
// HEAVY LASER
// =======================
item heavylaser
{
name "_Heavy Laser"
model weapons/laserheavy/laserheavy
weapon true
type biggun
animationindex 1
holdtwohanded false
firetwohanded true
shape "0 0 5 2"
center "8.5 0 1.5"
scale 1.15
ammo 10
reload 18
price 22540
size 50
buytype weap_pri
}

item laserrifle_ammo
{
name "_D-F Cartridge"
model weapons/laserrifle/laserrifle_clip
type ammo
animationindex 0
shape "0 0 1 2"
center "0 0 0"
scale 1.8
price 210
size 7
buytype multi_ammo
// buytype weap_pri
    dmgtype laser

weapon_mod laserpistol // weap_fds_idx=0
{
firedef
{
name "_Wave Fire"
skill close
projtl laserPulse
impact laserImpact
hitbody laserImpact
firesnd weapons/laser
speed 0
spread "0.7 0.7"
crouch 0.9
range 60
shots 1
ammo 2
time 6
damage "40 10"
dmgweight laser_medium
reaction true
}
firedef
{
name "_Pulsed Fire"
skill close
projtl laserPulse
impact laserImpact
hitbody laserImpact
firesnd weapons/laser
delaybetweenshots 8
speed 0
spread "0.7 0.7"
crouch 0.9
range 60
shots 3
ammo 3
time 6
damage "20 5"
dmgweight laser_light
reaction true
}
}

weapon_mod laserrifle // weap_fds_idx=1
{
firedef
{
name "_Wave Fire"
skill assault
projtl laserPulse
impact laserImpact
hitbody laserImpact
firesnd weapons/laser
speed 0
spread "0.5 0.5"
crouch 0.7
range 90
shots 1
ammo 2
time 9
damage "60 15"
dmgweight laser_medium
reaction true
}
firedef
{
name "_Pulsed Fire"
skill assault
projtl laserPulse
impact laserImpact
hitbody laserImpact
firesnd weapons/laser
delaybetweenshots 8
speed 0
spread "0.5 0.5"
crouch 0.7
range 90
shots 3
ammo 3
time 9
damage "30 10"
dmgweight laser_light
reaction true
}
firedef
{
name "_Aimed Wave Fire"
skill sniper
projtl laserPulse
impact laserImpact
hitbody laserImpact
firesnd weapons/laser
speed 0
spread "0.3 0.3"
crouch 0.5
range 90
shots 1
ammo 2
time 16
damage "60 15"
dmgweight laser_medium
reaction true
}
firedef
{
name "_Aimed Pulsed Fire"
skill assault
projtl laserPulse
impact laserImpact
hitbody laserImpact
firesnd weapons/laser
delaybetweenshots 8
speed 0
spread "0.3 0.3"
crouch 0.5
range 90
shots 3
ammo 3
time 16
damage "30 10"
dmgweight laser_light
reaction true
}
}

weapon_mod heavylaser // weap_fds_idx=2
{
firedef
{
name "_Wave Fire"
skill heavy
projtl laserOverload
impact laserImpact
hitbody laserImpact
firesnd weapons/heavy_laser
speed 0
spread "1 1"
crouch 2.0
range 120
shots 1
ammo 2
time 15
damage "100 25"
dmgweight laser_heavy
reaction true
}
firedef
{
name "_Long Wave"
skill heavy
projtl laserOverload
impact laserImpact
hitbody laserImpact
firesnd weapons/heavy_laser
speed 0
spread "1 1"
crouch 2.0
range 120
shots 1
ammo 3
time 25
damage "166 40"
dmgweight laser_heavy
reaction true
}
firedef
{
name "_Pulsed Fire"
skill heavy
projtl laserPulse
impact laserImpact
hitbody laserImpact
firesnd weapons/laser
delaybetweenshots 8
speed 0
spread "1 1"
crouch 2.0
range 120
shots 3
ammo 3
time 15
damage "50 15"
dmgweight laser_medium
reaction true
}
}
}

In general, all laser weapons are fast, accurate but they don`t offer very much damage/TU. Take note, that I also altered armour, so that lasers, especially heavy, remain effective vs all armour types, while firearms and plasma weapons do not.
All laser weapons can be fired in a single wave or 3 short pulses. However, unlike firearms, both firemodes take the same (low) amount of TU`s, since there is no recoil. Pulsed fire is more effective damage wise, but will have trouble penetrating armour, as each beam is only half-strenght. Laser Rifle has addtionally aimed firemods, which make it more accurate than the sniper, while heavy laser has "long wave" - type of overcharged mode, you were asking for - ideal against heavy armoured targets, should kill any alien regardless of armour on standart difficulty.

Comments are welcome :)

Captain Bipto

  • Guest
Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2008, 02:33:34 am »
Lasers appeal to my style of play which usually (when not doing Wachau map) consists of long range attacks.  I laughed my arse off when I saw the stats on plasma pistols and rifles. For me the high damage is simply not worth the short range these weapons have.   I have only encountered three aliens so far, the taman, ortnok and (i forget) i think the shevan (some sorta lizard guy, they are brown) and my weapons, even the smgs are still effective.  Another thing I noticed is that alien armor provides more protection against plasma than lasers?  Makes sense.

knightsubzero

  • Guest
Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2008, 06:09:27 am »
they sure are fine now, good job on the rebalancing. ;D

Negator_UK

  • Guest
Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2008, 03:23:36 pm »
I tended to use the laser weapons quite a bit, even at the end, although I wasn't sure if this was the right thing to do.

About halfway through the game (on Normal difficulty) I stopped using the Sniper rifle, so the laser rifle and heavy lasers were useful for long-range firefights, (which is how most of my missions start).

I think the big-chunky alien is resistant to lasers so they tended to take more hits before going down , but lasers did the job eventually.

Anything to keep me out of the most effective range of the aliens guns !!!

Balance seems OK to me, although having the aliens weapons operate at short range doesn't seem very over-aweing tech-wise.

Panthera Leo

  • Guest
Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2008, 02:26:02 am »


On Very Hard, and sometimes even hard... there is no overkill... just proper application of excessive force. :)

LOL

I remember when laser where more powerful, still I wouldn't call them totally useless. They're about the only weapon you can get any kind of ammo for (partial weapons) that do good at longer ranges, where the aliens lack any kind of power to speak of.

Offline Doctor J

  • Squad Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 265
    • View Profile
Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2008, 08:37:26 am »
Accuracy for the series should be proportional to weapon power, rather than inverse (last I checked in 2.2 this was the case). This makes sense both in terms of realism and gameplay. As it stands, it's absurd that the laser pistol, the weapon with the shortest range, is the most accurate.

I agree with your conclusion, but not your starting point.  Actually, accuracy is a function of weapon length [or even more in detail, the distance between the rear sight and the end of the barrel/front sight].  A long barreled sniper type will be the best.  The assault type weapons should be midway between the sniper and the SMG type.  Machine pistol and pistol type will be the worst.

Offline ponkan

  • Rookie
  • ***
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: Laser Rifle - useless ?
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2008, 11:06:01 am »
I agree with your conclusion, but not your starting point.  Actually, accuracy is a function of weapon length [or even more in detail, the distance between the rear sight and the end of the barrel/front sight].  A long barreled sniper type will be the best.  The assault type weapons should be midway between the sniper and the SMG type.  Machine pistol and pistol type will be the worst.

That only takes into account the sights' accuracy, in which case many telescopic sights are the most accurate (if adjusted properly), but not very long front to back. A longer barrel is more accurate in practice because it allows for more tolerance in sighting: if the front sight is adjusted a millimeter too much to the left, it's a bigger angular difference with a short barrel than a long one. A longer barrel also allows for more support to be applied, e.g. a two-handed grip. Also in play are dimensional and positional tolerances of parts. A sniper rifle (these days) is machined to much tighter tolerances because it must be accurate. SMG, not so much, so they allow a little more slop, which makes it much cheaper to produce, incidentally.

More power leading to better accuracy is only accurate with ballistic rounds. More power means higher speed, which means less drop at a given distance due to gravity (can be compensated for). More power is usually accompanied by greater projectile mass, which helps in the stability of its flight -- wind can't push it around so easily, imperfections in the bullet (uneven weight distribution) don't count as much. Since laser beams are massless the point is moot in both cases.

In the end laser (and other beam-type) weaponry is inherently more accurate than kinetic weaponry just because it is easier to manipulate light on a precise and consistent basis than matter. A rifle clamped to a very heavy base (to make recoil a non-issue) and fired four times at a target will show, in most cases, four different impact points. There's a lot of random stuff that can happen in the shell casing, propellant, slug, barrel, path to target that change the course. A laser, you clamp it down, and flash it four times, it'll hit the exact same spot four times.

In other words, laser accuracy is limited to human skill, where it's not necessarily the case with ballistic weapons. That said, human accuracy is generally better with long arms. My proposal is this:

Pistol: middle-of-the-range accuracy, both snap and aimed. Kneeling doesn't help much, since it doesn't stabilize the weapon itself.
Rifle: decent accuracy at snap, a little better than pistol. Aimed, it goes even higher, since here there is actually much room for improvement. Kneeling helps even more.
Heavy laser: It's big and awkward to carry and aim, so lowest accuracy while standing. Probably so unwieldy that a snap shot could go anywhere, but an aimed shot should have some chance of hitting its mark. Crouched, support really helps. Probably has a bipod under the barrel. Final accuracy is better than the pistol. If it's meant to be a support weapon ala M249 SAW (machine gun) final accuracy when crouched should be between pistol and rifle. If it's meant to be a sniper-type weapon as mentioned by Surrealistik (still a support role) then accuracy should definitely be highest, but only when crouched!

I do agree that the laser pistol and rifle are pretty well balanced (except for the accuracy cross), but the heavy laser isn't. Currently I never use it because the damage isn't really that much, TU usage is horrendous, and the magazine is tiny.