General > Discussion
regarding gatling/minigun
Winter:
--- Quote from: TrashMan on June 14, 2008, 09:03:30 pm ---Erm..one more thing..if you actually were planning on using a minigun, what makes you think you would be the one doing the hiding? :D
--- End quote ---
Stupid comment. Snipers would take you down with a single bullet from any possible location. You won't even know they're there. Exactly why snipers are so deadly.
You cannot fire a minigun from cover or from a prone position, and not using cover is a death warrant for any soldier in any combat zone.
And before you trot our that model you made, let me point out that while it looks nice, it's also highly impractical with the front handguard. So much so that it would never survive trials; one little nudge or bend on that bottom bar and your gun will violently rip itself to pieces.
--- Quote ---Speaking of which the gun itself is 16kg + ~10kg for ammo = 26kg. And we're down well below 30kg with still 80 years to go to UFO:AI timeline.
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. . . And we've already pointed out it's not going to get much lighter due to the fact that you'd need a heavy bullet for penetration, and you'll always have an unnecessary electric motor, battery and multiple barrels in a situation where all you really need is a proper machine gun.
--- Quote ---80 years..think about it. If you consider when the microgun was made that would mean almost 100 years from the microgun to UFO:AI time.
100 years. Can you even imagine the technical strides made in 100 years?
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Yes. They won't change the laws of physics or make people stupid enough to try and field infantry miniguns when normal machine guns will be so much more effective in all stated roles. Hell, by 2084 you will probably see single-barrel machine guns capable of rates of fire above 2000 rounds per minute. So what use is a minigun again?
--- Quote ---Just think what we had at the beginning of this century and what we have now. And then tell me in my face you really think it's impossible to fix some small technical problems in that time span.
--- End quote ---
Except as we've pointed out there are more than technical problems, there is fundamentally faulty logic in thinking that a minigun would be superior to a standard weapon in any capacity by 2084. Rates of fire for normal weapons will increase dramatically, whereas you would have to pile on yet more ammo, yet more weight and yet more volume just to keep ahead of them.
A minigun would not be preferable to a machine gun in any situation. I'm sorry but that's the truth. Higher rate of fire doesn't make up for all the drawbacks. Miniguns are very effective weapons on vehicles such as tanks, jeeps, helicopters and airplanes, sometimes even from fixed defensive positions, but will never ever work for infantry. They were never designed for infantry to use, could never be made to effectively replace an infantry machine gun, and will never be good enough at the things required of an infantry weapon. They simply weren't meant for infantry and no amount of fantasy and imagination will shoehorn them into that role.
P.S. Don't even start with "it's not a machine gun". It's right in the name, the proper military name -- "multi-barreled rotary machine gun".
Regards,
Winter
TrashMan:
--- Quote from: Winter on June 15, 2008, 02:14:07 am ---Stupid comment. Snipers would take you down with a single bullet from any possible location. You won't even know they're there. Exactly why snipers are so deadly.
--- End quote ---
The same holds true regardless which weapon you use.
--- Quote ---You cannot fire a minigun from cover or from a prone position, and not using cover is a death warrant for any soldier in any combat zone.
--- End quote ---
Again, what makes you think you can't fire it from cover or prone?
--- Quote ---And before you trot our that model you made, let me point out that while it looks nice, it's also highly impractical with the front handguard. So much so that it would never survive trials; one little nudge or bend on that bottom bar and your gun will violently rip itself to pieces.
--- End quote ---
What makes you an expert? Are by any chance a weapon engineer?
--- Quote ---And we've already pointed out it's not going to get much lighter due to the fact that you'd need a heavy bullet for penetration, and you'll always have an unnecessary electric motor, battery and multiple barrels in a situation where all you really need is a proper machine gun.
--- End quote ---
How much lighter does it have to get anyway? 26 kg is already rather light, and you can surely shave a few kg more off of that with more modern, lightweight materials.
--- Quote ---Hell, by 2084 you will probably see single-barrel machine guns capable of rates of fire above 2000 rounds per minute. So what use is a minigun again?
--- End quote ---
There's no way to know how weapon will evolve by 2080.
Coolnes. The same as half the current weapons in-game.
It's a fairy tale that plasma and particle weapon would be so effective compared to good ol' mass drivers.
--- Quote ---Except as we've pointed out there are more than technical problems, there is fundamentally faulty logic in thinking that a minigun would be superior to a standard weapon in any capacity by 2084. Rates of fire for normal weapons will increase dramatically, whereas you would have to pile on yet more ammo, yet more weight and yet more volume just to keep ahead of them.
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Maybe. Who knows what the future will bring? I'm not diluded enough to think I know the answer to that one. You however, seems so sure.
--- Quote ---A minigun would not be preferable to a machine gun in any situation. I'm sorry but that's the truth. Higher rate of fire doesn't make up for all the drawbacks.
--- End quote ---
And I disagree. You already proved you're mind is completely closed off to even simple solutions to many drawbacks. All you see is problems insted of solutions.
There's nothing more to say.
Winter:
--- Quote from: TrashMan on June 15, 2008, 12:53:38 pm ---The same holds true regardless which weapon you use.
Again, what makes you think you can't fire it from cover or prone?
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No, the same does not hold true, because other weapons can be fired from cover whereas an infantry minigun cannot be fired from anywhere but the hip due to recoil. Trying to fire it unsupported (i.e.from a prone or covered position) will either rip your arm off or drive the gun smack into your head. There's also the issue of unprotected rotating barrels which you can't cover because they would simply overheat and melt into a puddle.
--- Quote ---What makes you an expert? Are by any chance a weapon engineer?
--- End quote ---
No, but oddly enough I've done a LOT of research as a novelist and for UFO:AI specifically. I can easily point out possible points of failure and I know how the weapon selection process works.
By the way, one second of fire with a 7.62mm minigun costs approximately $150 in ammo, parts, specialist maintenance, etc. Want to compare that to a normal machine gun? No military could justify that much spending on an ineffective, inaccurate and technically/tactically challenged infantry weapon.
--- Quote ---How much lighter does it have to get anyway? 26 kg is already rather light, and you can surely shave a few kg more off of that with more modern, lightweight materials.
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Okay, so that's about 20kg on top of the standard soldier's loadout of for hopefully one engagement's worth of ammo. Now read this:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/call/call_01-15_ch11.htm
That's all from me for now.
Regards,
Winter
Darkpriest667:
Daniel you are right this is the necromancer thread.. i finished this topic off last week and came back today to find 3 more pages.. mostly with winter's *futile* arguments about how it cant be done.. and trashmans arguments about how it can be done.
What does this leave me with...
1) the administrators have never been in a serious combat situation... no one uses a fragging rocket launcher except against armor or hardened targets.. and with the quake engine here we cant blow the fragging walls up so to a real soldier the damned thing is useless
2) the administrators have no experience with weapons design and testing.. its apparent because all of the technologies trash and i have argued for not only already exist in the civilian sector. but are probably quite advanced in the military sector which I realize most of you all do not have access to.
3) they obviously hate the minigun because it owned their aliens in every scenario... im sorry its a damn good suppressive fire weapon and we all know it... special forces teams (like phalanx) have employed it in situations that you never read about.. Some of us know from first hand experience.
4) Its obvious VERY obvious its never going to be in the damned game the argument now is simply for the principle of being able to say im right and you arent..
I love this game admins... dont think this is a knock on your beautiful wonderful work.... Its just for those of us living in the real world.. in 2084 it seems fragging likely we will have some badass weapons...
Humans have always been very able and capable and even have.. made leaps and bounds in ways to kill other humans.. its quite unfortunate we cant use the same ingenuity to learn how to keep them alive for longer.
Winter:
--- Quote from: Darkpriest667 on June 15, 2008, 04:40:24 pm ---Daniel you are right this is the necromancer thread.. i finished this topic off last week and came back today to find 3 more pages.. mostly with winter's *futile* arguments about how it cant be done.. and trashmans arguments about how it can be done.
What does this leave me with...
1) the administrators have never been in a serious combat situation... no one uses a fragging rocket launcher except against armor or hardened targets.. and with the quake engine here we cant blow the fragging walls up so to a real soldier the damned thing is useless
2) the administrators have no experience with weapons design and testing.. its apparent because all of the technologies trash and i have argued for not only already exist in the civilian sector. but are probably quite advanced in the military sector which I realize most of you all do not have access to.
3) they obviously hate the minigun because it owned their aliens in every scenario... im sorry its a damn good suppressive fire weapon and we all know it... special forces teams (like phalanx) have employed it in situations that you never read about.. Some of us know from first hand experience.
4) Its obvious VERY obvious its never going to be in the damned game the argument now is simply for the principle of being able to say im right and you arent..
I love this game admins... dont think this is a knock on your beautiful wonderful work.... Its just for those of us living in the real world.. in 2084 it seems fragging likely we will have some badass weapons...
Humans have always been very able and capable and even have.. made leaps and bounds in ways to kill other humans.. its quite unfortunate we cant use the same ingenuity to learn how to keep them alive for longer.
--- End quote ---
D'you know, I'm really tired of this? I provide well-reasoned arguments, I try really hard to change your opinions with logic and factual information, but people just ignore the hours I've spent posting and doing research with illogical "IT IS TEH FUTUREZ" bullshit. Thread locked, and any further requests for miniguns to be included in the single-player campaign will also be locked.
Regards,
Winter
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