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Offline Psawhn

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Possible new craft
« on: March 19, 2007, 03:00:07 am »
While reading through the Wiki, I got inspired. :D

I don't know if there has been much decided for any hybrid craft (terran-built with alien tech) but this ship here was partly a practice in organic modelling techniques.
(Click on the thumbnails for full screen.)




And Orthoganal with wires:



The engines would be antimatter, and they are centered around the center of gravity. They can rotate up 90 degrees, and down 125 degrees allowing it to hover.

The wings were designed to be really curvy. I actually sort of wanted to be reminiscent of a saucer, but it ends up looking like a manta ray or something. :P
The curviness has something to do with alien nanopolymer baking, if I recall correctly from the Wiki.

The two holes on the top are for, uh, whatever. I was thinking some kind of internal "zomg lazers pewpew" or maybe particle cannons or something.

The textures are garbage. I was messing around with vertex paint in Blender. I don't even know if it's an alien or human craft. ;)

So... is there any room for this? :)


Edit: The polycount is quite high: 14k faces. Blender has decimation tools (and I can just turn subdivision down ;) ) if it needs to be way lower for the game.

Offline Mattn

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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2007, 07:13:39 am »
it looks very nice - but let's wait what our storywriters say ;-)

btw. the lower the polycount - the better for the game :-D

Hoehrer

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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2007, 11:21:22 am »
I can just re-iterate what mattn said here. Looks very good, but we always need to get this sort of stuff confirmed/checked up with Winter (our story-writer among other things) so it fits into the rest of the storyline of the game.

And of course polycount of 14k is kinda high (I think we could use it that way), but I see lots of places where it can be reduced quite a bit without hurting overall shape to much.

I can help you here - or in any blender related stuff  for that matter - if you like. Just contact me.

I'll see what would be a good polycount for such a craft.
If you have the model finished on your side and we get the ok from Winter i can try to make it usable in the game.

Werner

Offline Winter

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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2007, 11:49:55 am »
It's a nice model (although obviously it wouldn't be able to hover with just two engines at the back, as it would tip over ;) ), I think we could use it if the polycount was reduced to something more manageable. Such a simple shape shouldn't take 14,000.

It will also need some serious texturing work to make it look good, but beyond that, I'd be happy calling it the 'Stiletto 2'.

Regards,
Winter

Offline Psawhn

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« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2007, 09:45:42 pm »
Actually, I tried to make sure the engines were over the center of gravity. That was one of the main goals from the start.

Well, I did just eyeball it, so it probably isn't over the exact center of mass. I wish I knew a way to calculate the volume of a manifold mesh in blender.
Oh well, let's pretend there's some really heavy stuff on the end of the wings to keep it in balance. ;) Tha or I can move the engines forward a bit more, or add a thruster in the belly.

It has 14,000 polys because I have subsurf subdivision turned on. I was mainly thinking of applying subsurf and using the decimator modifier in blender to lower the polycount, to try to preserve as much of the curviness as I can. (That mesh you see in the ortho views is the optimized subsurf - original polycount but curvy to fit the subsurf.)
Of course, I'd hold on to the high-poly mesh for renders and pictures and stuff if needed. :)


Oh, are there any requirements for the weapon mounts? Or any other kind of module mount for that matter?
I was thinking internal weapons bays on either side of the fuselage. Those holes on the top would reach into the bay. Cannons, lasers, particle beams, etc. would mount inside the bay but come through the holes.
If something like a missile is mounted, the bays can open up and the missile would drop down, like in an F-117 or F-22.

I'm not too sure about TR-20s. I could enlarge the gun hole to let them shoot out, they could be put on a deployable arm, or maybe they just can't mount.


As for textures, I need a bit of guidance. :)
Is the hull built out of alien alloys, or advanced terran carbon-polymers or whatever? What colour is it? Does the forming process create colour gradients?
Does paint stick well to the surface? Radar-absorbing paint?
Is there a defined PHALANX colour scheme? Would the hull be mostly bare metal with paint accents/labels/decor, or would the entire thing be painted? (Like black radar-absorbing paint.)
Would the ship go into space? Does it need RCS thrusters? (Funny thing about that - if the engines weren't in the center of gravity, it could use gimballing and differential thrust to maneuver in space)
Does it need heat tiles for re-entry? (Probably not, considering alien alloys, but it's still better to make sure.)
Do the PHALANX mechs wash the ship down and repaint it regularly? Or should the textures be a bit battle-worn and ragged?

Edit: Oh, something else. Should the wings change shape? I can probably find a way to bake that into blender's shape keys, in case the wings need to stretch out for slow flight or pull in for quicker flight or re-entry or something.

Edit#2:
I should have checked what it looks like without subsurf anyways. :D

774 Polygons. Many of those are quads, though. I don't know if quake2 model format supports quad-polygons or if it needs to be triangles.

If I turn it to triangles only, it's 1486 triangles:

It looks pretty ugly with only triangles, though. :P

Hoehrer

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« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2007, 11:43:20 pm »
Looks very good in low-poly ... this is a perfect compromise between polygons vs. shape.
Quote from: "Psawhn"
It looks pretty ugly with only triangles, though. :P

Never mind that glitches .. they will not be visible when it's textured (it's only a shading problem when gourand-shading). Just make sure you do not have overlapping faces, flipped normals or something along these lines.

high-poly: yes, these are perfect for renders, mission intro screens and stuff like that. Eyecandy goood ;)

space: EDIT see Winrers reply below :)

wings shape-change ... currently we display the models in the ufopedia, maybe the hangar (mattn: does this work yet?) and in the future I'd say it will get displayed in the interception screen .. but at what size and in what way that's still open. I believe it may be to much work for to little benefit to make some sort of variable-shape wings. But I'm always open for ideas.

Werner

Offline Winter

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« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2007, 11:43:20 pm »
Quote from: "Psawhn"
Actually, I tried to make sure the engines were over the center of gravity. That was one of the main goals from the start.

Well, I did just eyeball it, so it probably isn't over the exact center of mass. I wish I knew a way to calculate the volume of a manifold mesh in blender.
Oh well, let's pretend there's some really heavy stuff on the end of the wings to keep it in balance. ;) Tha or I can move the engines forward a bit more, or add a thruster in the belly.


I don't suppose it's strictly necessary, but do remember that there'll be a variable weight of weapons in the front. Some small rotatable engines on the 'wingtips' at the back would not go amiss.


Quote
Of course, I'd hold on to the high-poly mesh for renders and pictures and stuff if needed. :)


Certainly.



Quote
Oh, are there any requirements for the weapon mounts? Or any other kind of module mount for that matter?
I was thinking internal weapons bays on either side of the fuselage. Those holes on the top would reach into the bay. Cannons, lasers, particle beams, etc. would mount inside the bay but come through the holes.
If something like a missile is mounted, the bays can open up and the missile would drop down, like in an F-117 or F-22.

I'm not too sure about TR-20s. I could enlarge the gun hole to let them shoot out, they could be put on a deployable arm, or maybe they just can't mount.


There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of room for internal bays in that tiny fuselage. I know it's supposed to be a light antimatter-powered fighter, but come on. ;)

I think modifying it to have larger weapon bays on either side of the cockpit would make it look more dangerous as well.


Quote
As for textures, I need a bit of guidance. :)
Is the hull built out of alien alloys, or advanced terran carbon-polymers or whatever? What colour is it? Does the forming process create colour gradients?


Alien materials. The colour can be anything you like, but it would logically be a darker colour due to the stealth aspect. Highlights and such can be added as you like; you can take freely from alien and human inspirations, as this craft will be a marriage of both.


Quote
Is there a defined PHALANX colour scheme? Would the hull be mostly bare metal with paint accents/labels/decor, or would the entire thing be painted? (Like black radar-absorbing paint.)


There is no defined PHALANX colour scheme, since PHALANX uses mostly adopted military and police equipment. As I said, a darker colour is somewhat expected.


Quote
Would the ship go into space?


Yes, but short orbital missions only.


Quote
Does it need RCS thrusters? (Funny thing about that - if the engines weren't in the center of gravity, it could use gimballing and differential thrust to maneuver in space)


If you add two extra articulated thrusters at the wingtips, it shouldn't need extra thrusters.


Quote
Does it need heat tiles for re-entry? (Probably not, considering alien alloys, but it's still better to make sure.)


Nope. Alien materials.


Quote
Do the PHALANX mechs wash the ship down and repaint it regularly? Or should the textures be a bit battle-worn and ragged?


Stealth paint is not an optional sort of thing. ;)


Quote
Oh, something else. Should the wings change shape? I can probably find a way to bake that into blender's shape keys, in case the wings need to stretch out for slow flight or pull in for quicker flight or re-entry or something.


I'm not fussed -- I doubt we'd have the ability or time to show the model actually changing shape anywhere that might be appropriate.

Since it's made from alien materials, though, it will (in the writeup at least) be able to change shape to some degree.


Quote
774 Polygons. Many of those are quads, though. I don't know if quake2 model format supports quad-polygons or if it needs to be triangles.


I believe it needs to be triangulated.


Quote
If I turn it to triangles only, it's 1486 triangles:

It looks pretty ugly with only triangles, though. :P


Program triangulations tend to turn out bad; see if there are any manual adjustments you can make so that both sides turn out symmetrical. I have to do this in Wings 3d all the time.

Either way, 1486 triangles is WELL within limits. The fewer the better, but you could probably add a few hundred more if necessary.

Regards,
Winter

Hoehrer

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« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2007, 11:53:30 pm »
Quote from: "Winter"
I believe it needs to be triangulated.

Yes that is becasue we use the md2 model format (which only supports tris) for ingame models. Basic support for md3 is there but i have not yet tested it with craft models (and i also need to check if _that_ would support quads). EDIT: fixed some things in this sentence :)


Quote from: "Winter"
Quote
If I turn it to triangles only, it's 1486 triangles:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/Psawhn/Blender/Mar19_lowpolytri.jpg
It looks pretty ugly with only triangles, though. :P


Program triangulations tend to turn out bad; see if there are any manual adjustments you can make so that both sides turn out symmetrical. I have to do this in Wings 3d all the time.


as i said above .. most strange affects that come from triangulation are gone when using uv-mapped textures and no grourand shading similar to that in blender. From experience: As long as we have the original (quads) model in blender (or in a format like obj that supports more than tris) we will have no problem at all.
Let the triangulation/exporting be our problem - it'll save you from some hassle. blend files are perfect :D

Quote from: "Winter"
Either way, 1486 triangles is WELL within limits. The fewer the better, but you could probably add a few hundred more if necessary.

Very true.

Werner

Offline Psawhn

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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2007, 01:54:58 am »
Sounds encouraging! :D

Quote
Let the triangulation/exporting be our problem - it'll save you from some hassle. blend files are perfect

Will do! :D The way it's set up, the only difference between high-poly and low-poly is the little 'x' next to the subsurf modifier. :)


Variable weapon weight is a good point. (I wonder how a Firefly does it with just two engines - they even have a big cargo bay! Talk about variable weight... :P)

How about an extra belly thruster, and a pair of wingtip thrusters at the back like you said? ;)
I could make the belly thruster internal, rotating out when needed. (ie: leave the model as it is for laziness - leave the thruster for renders. ;))


Quote
There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of room for internal bays in that tiny fuselage.

That brings up a good point I forgot: size. About how wide should the craft be, yet still able to fit in a small hangar? I guess I don't need to worry about it, considering Hoehrer offered to worry about exporting. :)
I think I'm more curious, so I could model a pilot inside with the right dimensions.
That's another thing - the canopy window. Is a full-length window like that too big/impractical for a glass window, or are there transparent alien materials? (Do I need to worry about it?)

Quote
I think modifying it to have larger weapon bays on either side of the cockpit would make it look more dangerous as well.

That's a good idea. I'll work on that.

Quote
Stealth paint is not an optional sort of thing. ;)

Oh, I totally want to sig that now. :D


I'll try to keep everything in mind. :) Although, because I'm using a mirror modifier, it'd make it a lot easier if I can finish the geometry before working on unwrapping the UVs.

Offline Winter

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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2007, 02:51:27 pm »
Quote from: Psawhn
Sounds encouraging! :D

Quote
Variable weapon weight is a good point. (I wonder how a Firefly does it with just two engines - they even have a big cargo bay! Talk about variable weight... :P)


They even it out with ballast tanks full of handwavium, and Wash's expert piloting. ;)


Quote
How about an extra belly thruster, and a pair of wingtip thrusters at the back like you said? ;)
I could make the belly thruster internal, rotating out when needed. (ie: leave the model as it is for laziness - leave the thruster for renders. ;))


I don't think the belly thruster would be necessary. After all, those main engines could probably rotate to provide some thrust forward, and considering they're antimatter-fuelled, they'll have plenty of power.



Quote
That brings up a good point I forgot: size. About how wide should the craft be, yet still able to fit in a small hangar? I guess I don't need to worry about it, considering Hoehrer offered to worry about exporting. :)
I think I'm more curious, so I could model a pilot inside with the right dimensions.


Dimensions are still a bit up in the air at the moment. The current Small hangar is not too big, but our mapping genius has managed to cram two Stiletto-class interceptors in there. I personally would like to restrict them to one plane per hangar, so that the small hangar could actually be used for more than one type of craft.


Quote
That's another thing - the canopy window. Is a full-length window like that too big/impractical for a glass window, or are there transparent alien materials? (Do I need to worry about it?)


No need to worry about that, just don't go overboard. ;)


Quote
Oh, I totally want to sig that now. :D


Go right ahead!


Quote
I'll try to keep everything in mind. :) Although, because I'm using a mirror modifier, it'd make it a lot easier if I can finish the geometry before working on unwrapping the UVs.


You can always mirror the model after you've UVed it. Perfect symmetry! *grin*

Regards,
Winter

Alex

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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2007, 02:55:49 pm »
Hm, as for the transparent materials, couldn't these alien alloys be so far advanced that embedded cellular computers could detect where the pilot is looking and so change the molecular structure at that point to allow the pilot to look out from anywhere, without letting people look in?

Offline Psawhn

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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2007, 07:10:26 pm »
Quote from: "Alex"
Hm, as for the transparent materials, couldn't these alien alloys be so far advanced that embedded cellular computers could detect where the pilot is looking and so change the molecular structure at that point to allow the pilot to look out from anywhere, without letting people look in?

That would also restrict the pilot's peripheral vision, which is very important.

Quote
They even it out with ballast tanks full of handwavium, and Wash's expert piloting. ;)

Ahh, of course. Silly me.

Quote
I don't think the belly thruster would be necessary. After all, those main engines could probably rotate to provide some thrust forward, and considering they're antimatter-fuelled, they'll have plenty of power.

I see what you mean. The engines can move forward, but because the center is still behind the CoG it wouldn't help. But those extra thrusters on the back can actually point up to keep the craft stable.

Quote
Dimensions are still a bit up in the air at the moment. The current Small hangar is not too big, but our mapping genius has managed to cram two Stiletto-class interceptors in there. I personally would like to restrict them to one plane per hangar, so that the small hangar could actually be used for more than one type of craft.

I kinda assumed only one craft per hangar. There has to be room around the craft for people to move around carts of weapons and fuel and that.
(Incidentally, I think large hangars should be able to service small craft, but the advantages of having small hangars would be lower maintenance costs and better use of real estate.)

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No need to worry about that, just don't go overboard. Wink

All righty then.

Quote
You can always mirror the model after you've UVed it. Perfect symmetry! *grin*

That works, but of course the textures would be perfectly mirrored too.  "Not a step" would come out to "pets a toN" on the other side. :)

Here's the craft with more bulk and a pair of wingtip thrusters:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/Psawhn/Blender/Mar19_OGL1_bottom.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/Psawhn/Blender/Mar19_OGL2_front.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/Psawhn/Blender/Mar19_OGL3_thruster.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/Psawhn/Blender/Mar19_orthofront_wep.jpg

Offline Winter

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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2007, 08:32:40 pm »
Quote from: "Psawhn"
I kinda assumed only one craft per hangar. There has to be room around the craft for people to move around carts of weapons and fuel and that.


Exactly my reasoning.


Quote
(Incidentally, I think large hangars should be able to service small craft, but the advantages of having small hangars would be lower maintenance costs and better use of real estate.)


Nah, they'd have all sorts of incompatible fuel lines and such. Different sizes and all that.


Quote
That works, but of course the textures would be perfectly mirrored too.  "Not a step" would come out to "pets a toN" on the other side. :)


. . . And your point is? ;)


Quote
Here's the craft with more bulk and a pair of wingtip thrusters:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/Psawhn/Blender/Mar19_OGL1_bottom.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/Psawhn/Blender/Mar19_OGL2_front.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/Psawhn/Blender/Mar19_OGL3_thruster.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/Psawhn/Blender/Mar19_orthofront_wep.jpg


I likes it. The weapon hardpoints are good, we can put some nice outboard models on that. Are there any more changes you're planning? If not, please go ahead and texture it.

Regards,
Winter

Offline Psawhn

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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2007, 11:51:02 pm »
Great!

I just made a couple of changes since those pictures. All it really amounted to was the mesh topology on the front was cleaned up a bit. The main engines are also a bit further back, but that's shown on those pictures. Also, the intake/holes/things are gone.

Here's a version of the .blend. No textures are on it yet.
https://webdisk.ucalgary.ca/~djetowns/public_html/misc_files/xcomfinter_geometry_release.blend
Currently it's split into different materials just to show different regions.
To turn it into low-poly mode just delete subsurf, convert to triangles, and apply mirror. (In that order. ;) )

Do I need to model the weapon bays? (Doesn't take much - just separate a section and extrude inwards. Voila! Weapons bays! :D)
How about landing gear for the hangar screen?

I'll get started on texturing. I've a midterm and assignments coming up, so it'll probably get delayed a short while.

Offline Winter

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« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2007, 01:19:58 am »
Quote from: "Psawhn"
Do I need to model the weapon bays? (Doesn't take much - just separate a section and extrude inwards. Voila! Weapons bays! :D)
How about landing gear for the hangar screen?


No need to actually model inboard weapon bays. Maybe some open hatches to imply that the weapons are kept inside the fuselage during normal flight?

A second version with landing gear deployed would be good to have.

Regards,
Winter